+100 Agreed I like to think I can look at racing with a unbiased view, in this case Kimi wins we are happy for that we are also happy no intervention from Max. Roll on someone that can give us as fans clear black and white rules, without interpretation. Have a safe trip home Mike.
Any decision involving a human is bound to be biased in some way. That's why I think the fewer interventions the better. In the end consistency is the best we can hope for.
Yes I agree Dave, hence my loathing of Mosley.. One question then I'm done with it ..well Rob Lay could answer it as well as he races: Your at the start line you know you can use the run off and it's 50-50 maybe! depending on who you are to the powers that be, do you go for it hoping for the best and use the run off as a premeditating move or do you sit on the track..and make sure you brake to stay on the line/track as if there was a wall there..? There should be a clear cut rule and it should be enforced as with back markers WDC contenders whatever, IMO, this one does not need an interpretation. Gain an advantage take a hit, irrespective of who you are or what your driving.
Well your probably right, but as the main bone of contention with the FIA and FOTA wars has been this very problem, you have to concede Ian, Mosley in the past has done a very poor job in that respect very poor.
did you guys see the photos on this page? http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=138927935&posted=1#post138927935
if rubens hadn't stalled, kimi wouldn't have been in the position to go wide. just because kimi's action was more deliberate, and rubens was an accident, doesn't make it invalid. both actions predicated what was to follow.
No conspiracy thoery here but why was Kimi the only one to gp outside of RB ? I really truly believe Kimi had the running wide move planned. It really does not matter if the KERS, momentum, the other cars lifting, or the alignment of the stars. The RULES state he has to give position back. Sutils pass was flagrantly wrong. Seems the Steward judgement pendulum has reached the opposite zenith.
agreed. my earlier point, though, is that i don't necessarily agree with the rules as they are written. no matter as the worse problem is the inconsistent enforcement.
That's almost worthy of a "sig line" Question then becomes, "has it actually reached said zenith yet?" Or, are they gonna be able to get away with ****?..... Cheers, Ian
Kimi went into the turn in 4th position and came out in 4th position. Shortcutting a corner cannot gain a position. Kimi did not gain when he was forced off track. That's the rule. If you gain you must give back. He didn't gain. It has nothing to do with 'extra speed'. FYI 2 other cars were also forced off track.
watched the replay today. rob or others who say that kimi was the root cause, i don't see it. AFAICT, none of his actions had anything to do with the big lap 1 problems. grosjean got into the back of button which started it all. hobbs and co discussed kimi starting it all but that's not what happened. kimi was driving like an idiot for sure, his off and on at turn 1 definitely gave him an advantage. earlier i said he was forced wide, but in actuality he drove wide by choice rather than slow up for the cars in front. his later off and on caused heidfeld to run into him, but that had nothing to do with the action further back in the pack.
That isn't true. He absolutely came out in a better position than going in, from all the footage I've seen. I don't think one could say he didn't gain an advantage. His choice was brake and tuck in behind the cars in front, or go off-track and go around them. He chose the latter.
I agree that Kimi planned that off-track Turn 1 maneuvre from the beginning. He has a good memory, and obviously recalled how well it worked for him 1 year ago! If anyone has Spa 2008 still on video, have a look at turn 1 - Kimi did the exact same move last year, ran way wide off the track in order to stay in the throttle and gain positions and momentum. While the stewards completely ignored that Turn 1 transgression, it was later in the same race when the infamous Hamilton/Kimi chicane pass happened. Regarding Kimi's 2008 and 2009 Turn 1 off-track excursions - some say Kimi had nowhere to go... sure he did, his legal option was to hit the brakes before colliding with the car in front of him and stay on the track. He doesn't have the right to drive around the car in front if it's slowing down if there is no room on the track. Imagine that scenario at Monaco, with barriers instead of painted lines - do you think Kimi would have simply slowed down and followed the other cars around the corner, or ran into the barriers? Silly question, right? The same scenario should, by the rules, have applied at Spa. Here's an article wondering why Kimi wasn't punished, with an analysis: http://www.f1network.net/main/s491/st148820.htm The article quotes the FIA regulations as follows: Appendix L. CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS c) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the race. Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt: - the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not, and ; - a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track. Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. d) The Repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the stewards of the meeting and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of the any drivers concerned. The rules are actually very clear - Kimi left the track, and rejoined with an advantage of 1 or 2 places plus momentum (If he hadn't had that run around the outside, he would not have had the speed to pass for 2nd place on the following straight) - and momentum counts, see Hamilton vs. Kimi at Spa 2008. For some bizarre reason, Kimi appears to be invisible to the stewards when he drives through Turn 1 at Spa - that's the only logical conclusion for the lack of a penalty!
Lots of the discussion seems to pivot on advantage or clear advantage. I am not saying forget the rules, but for the sake of this question forget the rules. During a qualifying run, all other lap and car elements remaining equal, would lap times be lower if a driver intentionally executed Kimi's move over the grass and to the runoff apron on the outside of the turn. To clarify, would the driver have a higher entry speed since the corner isn't as sharp (trip over the grass would have to be factored in), would he be able to carry more speed through the turn, and would those potential higher speeds make up for the greater distance he would have to travel and take him more quickly to the braking zone of the next turn? We know cutting a chicane (straightening a corner) is an obvious advantage (which is why I don't believe Lewis repassing Kimi incident last year is instructive), but is travelling a longer distance, complicated by an albeit brief grass excursion, also an advantage? The question above would seem to answer that. In my simple mind, the answer to the qualifying question should be the standard to whether an advantage exists and if a penalty should follow. I haven't the time, but my guess is that a math problem answers the question. I bet that question has been solved by the brain trust in F1. If running the greater distance wide would lower lap times, and knowing that if you are outside on the start you could use the "I was avoiding a collision" card, I have to conclude that Kimi or his team absolutely intended all along to make that move. Another conclusion could be that this is my first post in the F1 section and I don't have the slightest clue what I am talking about
Let's just say that people at F.India, red bull, bmw,mclaren, Brawn-gp and williams are just a bunch of idiots for not taking any action and gain a place on the final grid of the race.. They should hire at ferrarichat, wich is full of experts, because obviously those teams are not.. right?
orrrrrrrrrrrr...... maybe they just don't believe he gained an advantage? greater distance. dirty tyres. he DID come out of the corner in the same position as he entered, and had KERS to then overtake? Just guessing......as we all are...but it's hard to imagine other teams not protesting otherwise.
Well lets face it Kimi is hardly a WDC contenter it actually helps Brawn Kimi winning, same applies to the rest to an extent, Force India won't complain about Ferrari they owe them to much money. The point is we are beating are selfs up on an issue where yet again, it is the inconsistant rules that are randomly applied that is the problem, nothing to do with who was driving for whatever team. The only question that should be asked and it has been pointed out, Kimi did the same thing last year, it appears it was a premeditated move this year, answer to the problem state in the rules it's ok or put gravel in it. Well thats my take on it.
Axe body spray should make a commercial out of it! No, lap times would be higher. But during a race, and especially at any turn 1, if you can get out of traffic you can usually gain an advantage.
