Another Mobil1 0-30 story

Iuse the mobil 1`0W30 in my 328 for some 5000 km now. No problems but i do like to follow this story....

To me i cannot think of any reason the change of oil can cause your problem. keep us updated.

 

my question would be...if you didn't have a problem with redline ( a great product ) why would you switch to mobil 1 ? try putting redline back in the engine and hope for the best.

 

The only thing that occurs to me is the chance that some contaminant or foreign object got into the engine, perhaps mixed in with the oil. Maybe a bit of foil off the bottle?


I was going to change one of my cars over to the 0W30 Mobil 1, several years ago, only to find that there wasn't any in the stores: Mobil 1 had recalled it.

It seems that Mobil keeps fiddling with the formula, and they'd gotten that batch wrong.

That kind of thing makes it nearly impossible to select a "best" oil, as the formulas keep changing.

 

true story... recently a friend wanted to do the right thing and change his oil in a big block chevy (worked to the balls) from castrol to mobil 1. after he did,ran the car down the road to a show, thought he blew a rod due to all the noise that was coming from under the hood. limped home and put the old oil back in and noise went away after about 20 mins. same viscosity, but castrol was not synthetic.go figure.

 

John- I have run Mobil 1 in all my Jeeps, Corvettes, and Mercedes with no problem, but have not put it in my 575M, preferring to go with the Shell 5W40 synthetic and its clone, Quaker State Q synthetic. My technicians still report the Shell/QS has a bad tendency to foam, however, and the next oil change will be to Valvoline 5W40 synthetic, which does not foam and is readily available everywhere. The Redline 5W40 synthetic is widely recommended, including by Brian Crall, and also has excellent anti-foaming formulation.

Too many recent horror stories on the Mobil 1 0W30 to risk a Ferrari engine, in my opinion.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Dr. Ali Haas, your word.

 

Sorry, but I wasn't and never have been impressed with any of this 0 based oil nonsense. Thinner oil "may" have their place, but to second guess the OEM requirements is just plain assine. Most of the "0" weight oils have minimal amount of ZDDP and are not safe for use in "flat tappet" engines. Have doubts? Call the engineers at Redline or Mobil, as I did.

Why, why..why? Redline 5-40 or 10-40 is a great oil and has plenty of ZDDP to protect yor cam lobes. I presume that your engine was "silent" previous to this switch, for the better??

 

I would use one of the oil weights specified by the mfr for your engine.

 

+1....also, as others here have asked, if the Redline was working for you prior, what made you decide to switch?

 

Dr Haas is correct in that older engine oil recommendations were made before the advent of synthetics.

A 10W40 petroleum oil is 10 weight oil with viscosity enhancing additives to act like a 40 weight when hot.

A 10W40 synthetic oil is a 40 weight oil that flows like 10 weight petroleum oil when cold.

Searching through old OMs to find oil recommendations is not the way to go. For most older Ferraris, a good 5W40 or 10W40 synthetic like Redline or Valvoline will work just fine.

Ferrari recommendations for street cars using synthetic oils as OEM dictate viscosities between 5W40 (360/CS, 575M/SA, F430, 612) and 10W60 (599). Staying in that range should work fine for older cars. Regardless of what Dr Haas says, 0W30 is just too scary in older engines without hydraulic lifters.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Everything bad that happens to an engine is uniformly blamed on the engine oil yet rarely caused by oil unless there is a starvation condition. Starvation occasionally happens in race engines with wet sumps and is tolerated for short periods.

I am using Renewable Lubricants Inc. (RLI) in all my cars now.
There is 0W-20 in Linda's Murcielago. She ragged on me bitterly for dropping the Red Line 5W-20 she loved. But she is now very happy with the 0W-20 RLI as the engine is a bit more smooth and mechanically quiet.

I also changed from the RL 5W-20 to the 0W-20 RLI in the 57s Maybach, love it myself. Of course, I am not driving on the Autobahn at 180 MPH so a 40 grade oil as they recommend is just never needed. I do get more MPG, power and get-up-and-go with the thinner oils.

In the Enzo I changed from the "thick" 0W-30 Castrol to the much thinner 30 grade 0W-30 RLI. It just tested as a 20 grade oil in my latest used oil analysis. The wear is lower than normal. Again, I am not running at 220 MPH on the track so why use a 60 grade oil as is recommended by Ferrari. My oil never gets above 180 F.

aehaas

 

Ali- Thanks for participating. My comments were aimed at older Ferraris wioth solid lifters. I note you no longer use Mobil 1. Care to comment on the reasons?

Most of what I know about oil, I learned from your threads, so thanks.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

There are at least 3 separate issues going on in this thread. 1: dino-juice versus synthetic, 2: viscosity, 3: anti-wear additives.

1: A synthetic oil has a short span of molecules (min length to max length.) This makes a synthetic oil span an oil weight range (say 30 weight) from cold to hot. A 30 weight SAE oil will have 100 centiStokes (cSt) of (kinemetric) viscosity at 40dF cranking temperatures, and 10 cSt of viscosity at 212dF (100dC). Dino joice can muster this range of viscosities and stay in weight. Synthetic oils, due to their molecular span (tight) are thinner at cold temperatures and relatively thicker at hot temperatures. A typical synthetic with absolutely no viscosity modifiers will often run 5W-30 in SAE weight. That is, it will have a startup SAE weight of 5W or 60 cSt of viscosity, and flow faster to engine parts durring the cold start condition; yet at 212dF it will be back at the 10cSt the engine wants. A similar dino juice product would require a moderately large dose of viscosity modifiers.

Viscosity modifiers shear away, allowing the oil to thin. Thus, 5W-30, 15W-40, and 20W-50 synthetics rarely have any viscosity modifiers (or at best minimal amounts). The 0W-30, 5W-40, 10W-50 oils have more modifier and lower 'weight' base oils. 0W-40, 0W-50, and 0W-60 have fairly large doses of viscosity modifiers.

3: anti-wear additives are added to the oil to build protective microscopic layer on metal parts that sacrifice themselves so that the metal parts do not see the wear--the films do. ZDDP is one of these magic film productes. These films are not being produced with the oil is at a temperature lower than 160dF. So watch your temperature gauge and wait until the oil is fully warmed up before using the full capabilities of the engine--not just RPMs, but throttle too.

{Aside: I happen to have an F355B with bronze valve guides. I have 57K miles and almost 5K track miles on the engine yet the guides are in perfect condition. I think one of the reason they remain so is that I wait for the oil temps to come up before driving the living snot out of the engine.}

2: An engine want its oil at a particular viscosity. Note viscosity of oil changes with temperature, but the engine desires a viscosity that is essentially constant. At this viscosity, the oil flows, lubricates, cools, and moves contaminates through the filter where they can be removed. No oil is sufficiently thin enough at cold startup conditions--where on more typical cars, most wear takes place.

The question is how does the remote observer detemine what the manufacture knows about the desired oil viscosity numbers. Well, given the original oil was 5W-40 Shell helix, we can find (google) that the operating viscosity is 14 cSt and this oil has an HTHS number of 4.0. The HTHS number is supposed to be representative of high temp high shear operation. Race track use gets both, the high RPM operation gives us the high shear rates, and the part where one drives the living snot out of the car provides the high temperatures for the oil. HTHS is measured at 302dF. Now remembering that Shell Helix has an HTHS number of 4.0 and that the oil temperature red line is close to this 302dF remperature--what Ferrari is really trying to do is to specify an oil with HTHS numbers of 4.0. Furthermore, Ferrari is allowing you to drive this car to an oil temperature of 302dF wth that oil in it--within their normal wear assumptions.

So, we have induced that Ferrari wanted an oil with an HTHS viscosity of 4.0 and at the time of manufacture this required an oil with an operating viscosity of 14cSt. 14cSt is actually more oil viscosity than needed. This added viscosity saps power from the oil pump. With modern synthetic oils with good film strength and a good dose of ZDDP one can get by with 0W-30 oils even at the race track--under the caveat that you watch the temperature gauge and be prepaired to abandon the track day if the oil gets too high. 10cSt is plenty of oil viscosity for around town driving--and there are two rationals for going higher: 1: I can't be bothered to watch the temperature gauge 2: oil consumption.

At TWS in the midst of Texas summers, I can only get my F355B up to 285dF on the oil temp gauge (5W-40 oil). An oil with an HTHS number of 4.0 is actually opeating at a viscosity of 4.3 at this oil temperature. A few years ago, I did some research and found a couple 0W-30 (or 5W-30) oils that have HTHS numbers around 3.8. And I ran a batch in the F355B at TWS in the midst of summer heat. Low and behold, the oil temps went down (by 3-5dF--not much but visible on the gauge). This particular oil was operating right at the viscosity Ferrari has specified (4.1), it just happens at the 285dF temps rather than the 302dF temps where HTHS is actually measured.

{Aside: I should also mention that after a day/weekend at the track, you have pretty much consumed the additive package in the oil. The oil molecules are just fine, but increased engine wear will transpire until the additive package is replenished. Thus after a track day/weekend it really is time to change the oil--milage and time do not apply, here.}

Now if you happen to be in a situation where you will not slow down even with the oil at 302dF or higher, then is the time to consider 20W-50 oils. The only situation where I can see this happening is at a race track--and in a real race.

On the other hand, If your oil never sees the high side of 230dF on the gauge, then a lighter weight oil with a good HTHS number will probably be better for your drive of your car. That is, expect lower startup wear, better gas milage, (if that mater to anyone driving a Ferrari I don't know) and a bit more zip.

I really have to work to get the oil temps in my F355B up into the 230dF range. It is almost impossible on back roads.....

 

As of 4/7/09 Mobil 1 product information list regarding it's M1 oils is as follows: 0W-40 & 5W-50 Nominal Phosphorus Level PPM -1000, Nominal Zinc Level PPM - 1100 and 15W-50 Nominal Phosphorus Level PPM -1200 & Nominal Zinc Level PPM- 1300.

Ciao,
George

 

So if you use M1 15-50 do you need to add the ZDDP and if so where do you get it and how much do you add. My car is a 365 gt4. Thanks.

 

i use BG MOA for my ZDDP doseage in my cars. most shops will sell BG products. find one that will sell to you and buy a case at a time. they normally do not sell to people over the counter. you may have to go a few places.

the additives are added when the shop does an oil change. most modern car dealers add the stuff and never even tell you. i know my Nissan dealer uses the oil packages, and they have lots of cars coming in at 7500 mile oil change intervals. i still change mine around 3000-3500 miles. i barely manage 8000 miles a year in my nissan frontier, as i live 4 miles from work.

i have had ferraris, 911s, a lotus turbo, a pantera, and i used the additive in all of them.

 

Thanks Mitch...lots of good info...

Brock

 

Dr. Haas has done a bit of research/writing on the topic. Here's the sum of his threads, analysis, and wisdom.
It's 33 pages in Word, worth every one. Everyone I've sent it to has learned a lot, with data backing it up.

Hi Ali, hope you're well.

L
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M1 from the current (today) Mobil1 oil web site says nothing about ZDDP in 15W-50 M1. You should take this a a negative--15W-50 M1 does not have more than 800 PPM of phosphorous (part of ZDDP). So, it has some, but not what we used to get 1200-ish.

The only place I found a listing in the MDS was 10W-40 Truck and SUV oil with a phosphorous dose of .12 (its part of the ZDDP).

M1 15W-50 racing oil (lower detergents) does not even have the old ZDDP levels, however the 0W-40 racing M1 does.

 

The following table has the M1 P and Z amounts.

https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

OIt appears that 15W-50 has plenty of ZDDP, sorry for the confusion (mine).

 

I currently just switched from Redline 5W40 synthetic to Mobile 1 0W40 and have to tell you that I am very very pleased! Before I switched I noted the normal operating temperature and pressure conditions etc. of the car during start up running and turn off. I changed the oil and started the engine and noted immediate changes to the sound and performance. The engine sound was immediately changed to a quieter purring sound (simply amazed). As far as the pressure and oil temperatures, they reduced down to less than the 10-15% of the normal ranges noted before the oil change. I am currently keeping an eye on all the levels etc. But must say that I am still pleased with the results so far. Ill keep posted when I have any issues or changes that may have resulted in the changeover etc.

George

 

Thanks for posting this.

 

A M E N to that.

For all your older Ferrari\'s, the ONLY oil to use is what it was designed, tested, engineered and origional fill

AGIP Sint 2000

Cheers