The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Thanks, Jim

 

An upside to the economic downside

 

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6565674/classic-cars/2009-meadow-brook-concours-delegance/index.html

 

0846 was not "Destroyed at Mugello". It was not as Wayne pointed out used to build P5. It was as Marcel notes and Ferrari agrees "Resurrected" by me.


"In July 2002 James Glickenhaus bought a car from David Piper that both he and David thought was a replica P4 built on a replica chassis to P4 chassis blueprints that had been given to David Piper by Enzo Ferrari. After removing 1000 rivets, dissembling everything, stripping the chassis, researching the Ferrari build sheets and comparing the frame with 412P 0844, 412P 0850, 412P 0854, P4 0856, and P4 replica chassis 0900, 0900a, and 0900c Glickenhaus discovered that the car he had bought contained approximately 80+% of the original P3 chassis of 0846 modified to accept a P4 engine exactly as described in: "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET' of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n.0846". As it is impossible to build a P3 Chassis from P4 Blueprints it now seems likely that:
"After Le Mans 1967 0846 was returned to the Ferrari factory where it was deconstructed, investigated and scrapped. Years later, James Glickenhaus acquired remains of 0846, and with help from Ferrari S.p.A. who recast suspension uprights, commissioned Sal Barone, Alberto Pedretti, Bob Wallace and John Hadduk Jr. to restore 0846 to original specifications.

XVII Giro di Sicilia Official Program"

In an email dated 6/10/2005 Joanne Marshall of Ferrari S.p.A. wrote: "We confirm that, as far as our factory records are concerned, the chassis in question (0846) was totally written off in 1967 after the Le Mans incident." Glickenhaus has never disputed this but believes that the remains of 0846, including 80+% of it's original chassis survived and that those and other remains of 0846 are currently in the car that he owns.

The following link: http://www.glickenhaus.com/jim/project.pdf explains the basis for Glickenhaus' beliefs.

A letter from Ferrari S.p.A., dated September 29th, 2004, Subject: P3/4 Chassis no. 0846:

Dear Mr. Glickenhaus,

We wish to thank you for the extensive dossier you have sent regarding the above mentioned vehicle that as confirmed on our letter dated October 5th, we have examined in detail. The car was built on February 1966 as a P3 version and during its racing period, officially managed by the Factory, it went though several modifications in order to race the 24 hours of Daytona in 1967 as a P3/4. We also confirm that, as reported in your dossier, the car caught fire during the 24 hours of Le Mans. It was then totally dismantled and because of the extended damages detected, the factory decided not to perform any repair and to write off the chassis no. 0846. If some of the remaining components such as engine and gearbox were considered as possible spare parts, the chassis, because of its racing history and the fire damages suffered, was definitively scrapped. Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off, if this is the case. We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces but unfortunately the chassis no. 0846 had a sad conclusion.

Yours faithfully, Ferrari Classiche, Umberto Masoni"

This letter confirms that 0846's chassis was written off and scrapped, not melted into oblivion. For many years this is ALL and Exactly what Glickenhaus posited happened: That his car contains 80+% of the chassis remains of P 3/4 0846 among other original parts. He's never disputed that as far a Ferrari is concerned 0846 was written off/scrapped and under Ferrari's authentication definitions his car could not be authenticated by them. Glickenhaus is not the one who retrieved the chassis remains of 0846 "from the trash container" and used them to "to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off..." but he was the one who discovered exactly where the chassis remains of 0846 wound up and to insure that Umberto's wish: "We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces..." remains possible.

This letter confirms that 0846's chassis was written off and scrapped, not melted into oblivion. For many years this is ALL and Exactly what Glickenhaus posited happened: That his car contains 80+% of the chassis remains of P 3/4 0846 among other original parts. He's never disputed that as far a Ferrari is concerned 0846 was written off/scrapped and under Ferrari's authentication definitions his car could not be authenticated by them. Glickenhaus is not the one who retrieved the chassis remains of 0846 "from the trash container" and used them to "to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off..." but he was the one who discovered exactly where the chassis remains of 0846 wound up and to insure that Umberto's wish: "We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces..." remains possible."

Years later chassis 0864 and engine 0864 were built up into a 612 Can Am. This was a 612 Can Chassis not a P 3/4 chassis and the car was likely crashed at Mugello during testing.

0864 was not "Destroyed at Mugello" either. It's remains, including it's original chassis, minus it's chassis plate, which as an aside is how 0846's chassis was scrapped not destroyed, was sent on to Pininfarina and was used by Pininfarina to build Modulo.

I suspect that both 0846's and 0864's chassis plates were removed by Ferrari to show tax authorities that Ferrari had scrapped, "Not sold" (Ferrari's words to me on 0846's chassis) chassis 0846 and chassis 0864.

As a futher aside Ferrari did a similar thing with the chassis that was used by Pininfarina to build Dino Competizione. Ferrari "scrapped" it's original chassis' legal identity "034" and changed it to "10523" as it's Ferrari chassis reads today.

 

Forza 3 will be out soon.
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when does "Need for Speed: Glickenhaus Garage" come out?

 

I dig that cockpit photo. Can almost imagine...

 

There's only one P 3/4 in the world with purple dymo tape lables and a brake bias booster control.

 

Must make it easier to find in a crowded parking lot,

 

Purple...isn't that the color ink Enzo favored??

 

It was.

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/32984904?slide=6

 

30 million?????????

 

Any idea what Ferrari did with the original chassis plate with the number on it? I assume it was discarded and is lost forever. Also, would/did Ferrari provide you with a new number to place on the chassis? Considering the original modification to the engine cradle area which was specific to this chassis and only this chassis, I would not think Ferrari would have any bark about this chassis being *the chassis*, but then again this is Ferrari we are talking about here.

I read a bit deeper into this and saw the area of impact at Le mans was in the area where the chassis plate would have been. The plate is either: a. destroyed b. Ferrari has it but will not go through the legal means in suggesting the car does exist (???) c. Ferrari says it does exist but we will not give you a plate because you don't speak Italian, today is not the 3rd Tuesday of the 2nd business quarter, it's not a full moon.


How does the car handle at speed? I read the GT40 was quite the thrill ride on the Mulsanne straight and that one had to slowly lift off the loud pedal about a mile before the end and then sort of feed the brakes in slowly. Quite the contrary has been stated about the P3/4 in an article for Classic and Sports car (60th anniversary issue). Have you had the chance to explore Mulsanne speeds in her yet, or is this not something you are interested in?

 

I assume when Ferrari scrapped 0846 they cut off the original chassis plate and certified to tax authorities that the car had been scrapped. During my last meeting with Ferrari they admitted that they had swapped the chassis plates of several of the P 4's so I assume they cut it off and it's gone forever.

Ferrari also told me that they were happy that I was happy with 0846 and all between us is good.

Their position remains that they scrapped, not sold 0846 and that I should not have used the scrapped remains, including the remains of 0846's original chassis to "revival" (Ferrari's words) 0846 ( "bring again into activity and prominence") but allowed that these were "glorious pieces". (Marcel Massini used the word "resurrected" "Brought back from the dead" to describe 0846.)

Regarding driving 0846. She drives quite differently than my MK-IV. She is lighter and more nimble but she doesn't have the massive torque of J6 and VMAXed at 199 vs J6's 223. They are both wonderful drivers and on a twisty course 0846 would be faster but at Le Mans with it's ultra long strait there was no catching the MK-IV on that Day in June of 67.

"I read a bit deeper into this and saw the area of impact at Le mans was in the area where the chassis plate would have been. The plate is either: a. destroyed b. Ferrari has it but will not go through the legal means in suggesting the car does exist (???) c. Ferrari says it does exist but we will not give you a plate because you don't speak Italian, today is not the 3rd Tuesday of the 2nd business quarter, it's not a full moon."

A bit of all of the above.

 

It sounds like Ferrari sort of covered themselves themselves legally by condemning the use of the scrapped remains, but in the same breath are glad you did. I swear this car could be the next big car movie (except for the sitting for a long time part /snore).

I believe the difference in speed/distance/braking was calculated in meters per lap between the Ferrari and Ford at Lemans, and the end result was just about that sum of: laps(meters per lap)

thanks Jim!

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/jyhelbe56

Check it out. Lots of amateur color photos from the 1967 Le Mans practice and race including 0846 and Jim's Ford GTMKIV J6.

Gramps

 

Fantastic!

0854's in there too.

 

Here's a nice one of J5, 0846, and J6.
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I took notice when I was once underhood of a 250LM, the number plate was pretty simple and hand stamped, with tack welding, not at all like the street car version of a VIN plate...

That IS a nice shot.

 

superbes photos. quelle ambiance!!!!

 

For 312 PB's, it's nothing more than a small brass tag on the roll bar.

 

History is interesting and it's interesting to note who tried to rewrite it.

What's wrong with this picture?


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