Could Massa win 2008 WDC

Ian
You can rest assured if it was Mclaren and Hamiltons team mate crashing, and Ron Dennis was still in charge it would have been checked at the time, Flav has only gotten into Max's bad books of late because he has been out spoken in FOTA.

As Max has stated he likes a good party with Flav, outside the sport.

Yes maybe a comparison of NPJ previous laps would have been better, however the writing was on the wall with that its plain to see.

Actually thinking about it, Max would probably have done the same thing it's the way he works aces up his sleeve.

 

That's Massa 101, 201 and 301 in a couple of sentences.

 

Not to torture an analogy but I wouldn't put it past Max to keep this trump up his sleeve waiting for the right time to play it.

 

I quoted the paragraphs in the respective reports.

1st report is the first interview summary with Nelson
2nd report the supplement summary with Nelson
then follows the Stewards report to the FIA Max
then follows the pit-pit and pit-car communication transcript.

The interesting thing about that one is, it appears that Flav has absolutely no clue about anything. He is completely useless in the Pits and more of a distraction that anything.

 

Ian, read the reports.
They compared the telemetry first to his previou laps, then compared them to Alonso's so the team cannot say that "oh well, our car handles different that a Ferrari" They were very dilligent in comparing notes, then asked experts in their own ranks and then also interviewed Nelson, Alonso, Pat and Briatore on the same subject and went as far as to interview all of the Renault engineers on the subject.
All but Briatore, said that it was at least "unusual".

So yes, you can draw very clear conlusions from the telemetry. In itself it is not enough to call this a deliberate crash but it would ave been enough to look very very close into what happened and to have some hearings on the subject, especially with several teams being impacted by the outcome of the race since it was fixed.

I make my point again. If a former F1 driver, highly respected, goes to the sporting director and alleges that his own son was involved in fixing a race, I would very much expect that sporting director to take action and look into the allegations. No father throws his sun under the wheels for nothing just like that. At the end of the day you have to assume that Nelson Jr himself will lose his FIA licenses and frankly he should.

 

Thanks for the references.
No one is covered with glory in this affair but I'm particularly disappointed in Charlie Whiting. I've always thought he had more integrity than it now seems.

 

Actually not the absolute proof but proof that he did something that is absolutely against everything a race car driver would do if he has a concrete wall on that side.

Not a little. Full throttle all the way to the wall, yet he displayed a slight first reaction of lifting then back on he throttle and FULL.

Also not quite true. The radio com does not say specifically he should crash but it shows how Pat changed strategy on he rest of the engineers despite them saying that that change does not make sense. It is inconclusive but in the grand scheme very telling.

You are 100% correct. I am sure there are plenty and for the way the to Stewards handled the meetings is quite telling on their professional level. I was surprised myself.

 

I lost my respect for him in the whole Ratzenberger scandal, where it is claimed he has blood on his hands.

 

I agree...
Then he has a boss to respond to as well. Unfortunately sometimes doing the right thing would be better than thinking about a job.

 

That was pre-FerrariChat days. You cannot claim that!

 

I don't blame Charlie Whiting Max makes him look a fool over-ruling his opinons and decisions.

 

I'm not familiar with the back story on that.

As far as who bears the ultimate responsibility for the rot that has set into F1. Max has set the tone through his (lack of) leadership and his disrespect for the rules.

 

At some point he should have realized that working within Max's corrupt system was only abetting it.

 

According to Business F1 magazine Charly Whiting looked the other way when Max' old team failed the crash tests. The car was allowed onto the grid and structural failure killed Ratzenberger at Imola.

 

I imagine it got lost in the background after the Senna crash.

 

Ian, one more point that comes from some personal experience (not that it is o the level of F1 but the principles of physics apply pretty much everywhere o this planet close to the same)

Not sure if you had the chance of driving a Formula car. Not necessarily an F1 car (I have not, and would not fit, unfortunately) but in general any Formula. Same applies to the rear wheel, rear/center engine Ferraris or cars in general. When you lose grip on the rear you lift. You cannot power through a corner like you can with a front engine/driven car. The placement of the engine is factually somewhat irrelevant, the driving wheels make the difference.
For a driver of the professional level of Nelson Jr. (as much as I think he sucks on the F1 level) it would be very VERY unlikely for him to make a 'mistake' like that. That is why his own engineers questioned him after the incident.

From a team strategy point (having spend some time as a crew chief) I would assume that Alonso would raise questions on the strategy of a 3-stopper in the position he was starting and given it was a street course. I know if my strategist would have come to m to suggest that strategy I would have raised serious doubts and would have questioned where that would work.
As again a pro-driver of the caliber of Alonso and the involvement he has shown in spygate, I would expect him to raise questions on why he did not question that strategy that does not make sense in the slightest bit for the circumstance and the circuit.

So in both capacities as a driver I would have raised that question to my engineers/crew chief and as a driver I would have rised that question to my strategiest.

 

What is the telemetry going to show? That Piquet went into the corner a bit too hot, that he got on the gas a little too early and too hard? .

What an idiot. He cant even crash right.
All he had to do was clip a wall or curb.

 

It did. But Business F1 dug it out years after and had a long story about the various chassis used in those crash tests and the test results etc. They got sued over the story and Whiting cleared to some degree. But you know the old saying: Where there is smoke...

Aside from that I believe it is also Whiting's decision to send the field out behind the SC for the START of the race. That to me is so against everything F1 stands for that I can't even begin to describe how it upsets me. Akin to the idiots who wanted to put a roof on F1 cars after Massa's accident. Roofs and rolling starts? Sounds like NASCRAP to me.

 

When Mosley had his own team he cheated.

 

You're surprised?

Lets be realistic here: EVERY team cheats. The question is more to what degree. There is a wide spectrum of "cheating": From finding loopholes in the regulations over creative team orders all the way to unvoluntary manslaughter.

 

I'm I hell surpised, every team trys to take advantage or circumvent the rules, and Max makes such a balls up of rule making it lends itself to it.

Why Max has maintained his position for so long is not because he is good at his job, it's because he is Bernies partner in crime.

 

Max has shown no respect for the sanctity of his own rules. Why should anyone else?

 

Some truths are self evident.

 

Classic at the start of this year Luca played him at his own game remember the medals Hecklestone wanted..

 

In the documents it is clear that Pat wanted him to crash in a certain corner where there are no cranes to pull the wreck and no walls that open so they can tow it quickly, thus ensuring the safety car would be deployed. In that corner you cannot just clip it. In the corners where you could there is the equipment to remove a wreck because it is a 'likely' spot for a wreck.