Sports Cars are Dead

My Miata intentionally had roll up windows as I thought power windows made it less of a sports car.

Looks like the concept of what a sports car is changes over time. Perhaps someday a Prius will be considered a "sports car" compared to the electric golf carts that will vie for daily drivers.

 

Havent driven a Scuderia but a Stradale and an Enzo are still pretty scary to drive.

 

My 1967 Lotus Elan came with power windows, so I removed the windows

 

So's an AMG Mercedes. Beastly amounts of horsepower, lots of computers trying to keep the car on the road.

 

That's Urban Legend. Donald Turnupseed was never actually found at fault for the accident on the appropriately named "Blood Alley", which I am familiar with.

Perhaps best to discuss this on the Jame's Dean thread.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72943

 

I did see a special some time ago that reconstructed the accident and the show did indicate that it had been determined that Mr. Turnupseed had indeed crossed over the line and that accident reconstructionists determined Dean was not speeding at the time of the accident. The show the went into some detail explaining how it was determined. So, its not urban legend. To the extent there was never a formal finding or alternative theories remain, I don't have a horse in that race as it doesn't fatten or empty my wallet either way

I was just responding to the OP's initial posting, and have no interest in having a James Dean debate Thanks for the link and the heads up!

 

Cars are for "*******", if you want a real, classic, sports car experience, get rid of two of the wheels and ride a motorcycle.

The current crop of 600cc sportbikes, are light, powerful, and do not have any nannies to protect you. The only thing between you and the road is your skill as a pilot, and 1/16" of leather (in case you make a mistake).

 

Viper

 

Exactly.

Hard to argue, although the Elise/Exige is definitely edgier and "purer", with its mid-engined configuration.

But the Miata (and late S2000) probably meet the definition any way you slice it -- two seats, convertible, rear wheel drive, low center of gravity, compact proportions, etc. And they can/do race successfully.

That said, my point was that they aren't sports cars. I think manufacturers have gotten the idea that adding power turns any overweight coupe into a sports car. My favorite punching bag is the dowdy BMW M6, which is grossly obese and needs 500bhp to move with any sense of urgency.

One car that hasn't been mentioned here is the Porsche Boxster, which does a lot of things very right. If Porsche would come up with a version without all the garnish, that could be a killer sports car. But Porsche have their hands tied, being forever unable to produce something too good for fear that it will upstage the chronically flawed 911.

 

Too heavy and too disconnected to be a proper sports car

 

Agreed. More of a muscle car.

 

I couldn't tell where my wheels were when I drove it. I didn't get the road feedback I was expecting either. It did have the power, but it's not my style. I'll pass.

 

Bullfighter and Zygomatic make several good points...very thoughtfully written, guys!

While the focus of this thread may be the demise of the sports car, though, it may be apropros to consider that the death of the sports car driver came first, which led to a decline in the demand for sports cars and the features (or lack thereof!) that endeared us to them in the first place.

I tend to think that an example of this trend is the growing percentage of cars sold with automatic transmission (even in cars like Porsche, BMW, Ferrari, et.al.). To me, this is one (of many) signs that the old-time sports car driver is a dying breed.

Now please...don't defend your choice to buy a car with automatic transmission! I'm not out to start an argument in that regard and I'm not making any disparaging remarks about guys who drive automatics.

My own preference is stick shift transmissions, which I've driven since I was 16. I love the interaction between the car and the driver and the challenge of braking, downshifiting, upshifting and accelerating....always have, and always will.

 

996 GT3 mk1 is pretty excellent when it comes to the driver/car connection too... Of course it's not air cooled but a truly great 911...

 

My Caterham is edgier and purer than the Elise/Exige and it has the engine in the front

Traditionally, most proper sports cars were front engined. I also have a Lotus Elan, which many consider the epitome of 60's sports cars and it is front engined and it is also what the Miata is loosely based on.

One could also argue that for a road car, the engine in the front is the better location. I once read a famous rally driver that drove the mid engined grp B monsters say that when driving on a road that you don't have memorized, having the engine in the front is better since it acts as the fulcrum point for sliding the car a bit safer. Having the engine in middle, the engine becomes the pendulum as you are swinging the weight around behind you, making it harder to control past the limit (which is fine on a race track where you can practice over and over to find the edge but not go over it).

The Elise handles amazingly but is also notoriously tricky past the limit, fortunately the limit is pretty high so most people don't find it, but there has been plenty of crashes due to people lifting or overcooking it and not knowing how to recover

To me, handling is more than just how fast a car can go around corners or change direction, it's also about how it handles past the limit, how it feels and how much information the car gives its driver.

I think a lot of the problem nowadays is that people put way too much importance on the performance numbers as if they need some sort of bragging right. Unfortunately, car companies have to market around this, so they keep making cars than can "go the fastest around the Nurburgring" etc., which means that they have to be so stable at high speeds, which in turn makes them boring at real life speeds.
IMO There is a lot of truth in the saying that it is more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow

 

Why is it particularly important that a 'great' Porsche 911 is cooled by air? Does it provide a different noise from the engine or better driving experience overall, or is it purely a historical/heritage thing that's good to know your car adheres to?

Or is it purely that the water-cooled engine was introduced on the model that arrived with Boxster headlights - and so the feature carries a stigma amongst the 911 devotees?

All the best,
Andrew.

 

I like my "raw" and "edgy" car. I can forgive the power windows, since the power assembly is actually lighter than the manual window option, which is still offered on this car.

Eventually though, I'm going to want a purer driving experience, so I think I'll be on a list for one of the turnkey Caterham Super 7 clones.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Whatever!

Real men don't need two stinkin wheels, it dulls the sensation between you and the road, you don't need no stinkin rubber either. My preferred mode of transportation is a 200HP Unicycle. I replaced the tire with a 32"circular saw blade. I like to drink my own urine and drive around town at night in my underwear howling at the moon.

(insert howling at the moon sound effect here).

 

HILARIOUS!

Once again Joe has shown us the way.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

I think, by the time you are talking 430s, 911 TTs,... you have left the realm of Sports Cars, and entered the realm of Super Cars.

I, also, Think what sports car enthusiasts need is something like a (sub) 2000 pound sports car with 200 HP with roll up windows, manual tranny, unassisted brakes, unassisted suspension that is reliable enough to use every day with the day-to-day cost structure of a Camry. Imagine a FIAT X1/9 (built for quality by Toyota) with a 2 litre 200+ HP motor, ~245/40-17" tires {without it looking like the current generation of mr2}.

 

Mid-engined cars can certainly bite. But in racing -- which is arguably the reason for the 'sports' in 'sports car' -- the engine is always in the middle when that is permitted (e.g., Formula One and Indy, but not NASCAR...) That does presume some level of familiarity with the road and some level of intelligence on the part of the driver.

IIRC, the Caterham is the modern licensed version of the old Lotus Seven, so while I can't argue with its purity I would suggest that tradition swayed the decision. Likewise, when Bugatti stuck the powerplant behind the driver, I assume it wasn't to save money but because engineers concluded that was the best spot for it. (Ditto for the Ferrari F40, Enzo, etc.)

Usually when the engine is in front, it's due to tradition, crash safety, luggage capacity, convenience of servicing, legacy tooling or other reasons.

I appreciate tradition, and in fact I am hugely biased toward older cars. But if I were to ask Jag, Ferrari or Porsche to resurrect the real sports car, I would take alloy wheels over wires, injection over carbs, discs over drums, and mid-engined over front. Don't confuse "purity" with "traditional", in other words.

 

So, the Elise, in other words.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by early93viper
Viper

Here's my heavy and disconnected Gen I Viper whipping up on an:

Supercharged Elise:

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/93-VIper-VS-Supercharged_165788.htm

GTR:
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Nissian-GTR-VS-VIPER_646863.htm

GT3:
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Porsche-GT3-VS-Viper_193037.htm

Disconnected and challenging are not Synonyms. And a Viper (Especially the early one's) are challenging not disconnected. The car tells you everything you need to know you just have to listen for it. But once you do learn what to listen for, once you are connected it's extremely rewarding car to drive. From threshold braking to heel toeing to feathering the throttle so you get just the limit of torque when exiting a corner. Nothings like tracking a non-abs Viper. You can't get much more raw then that LOL

But a new vipers pretty close IMO one of the closest pure sports cars on the market.

 

Ginetta (lights and engine like a Miata, but it is about 10" shorter, 20" less length, a few inches narrower, and 1100 pounds lighter)!

BT
Image Unavailable, Please Login