458 Gearbox

Some complained of the same kind of clinical, detached involvement, upon degbut of Nissan's GT-R with the same kind of tranny. It's "too perfect;" yes, it does allow the car to stay in the powerband without drops in revs, thus, greatly enhancing performance and lap times: Alas, but this creates a sort of seamlessness and removal of acceleration feedback --feelings that are necessary and part of the entire chassis/engine feedback to the driver.

If you cannot feel the car against your own body as it climbs in revs and gear changes, feeling your timing and input influencing the car's entire dynamics and engine --- the sensation of the car can become somewhat emotionally empty, and as detached as the experience has become.

More and more sports cars have become quasi-land jets as the technology permits and promises to the customer. Good, bad... not either I guess; depends on the kind of experience you relate to more.

 

+1000000000!!!!

This thread is quite timely!

Here is part of a response to a thread today.......

"I drove the California and thought it was amazing, but I still like the F1 Superfast better.

I'm confident that the "feel" of the DCT in the 458 will be stellar. I'm just hoping it feels similar to the Superfast. There's something so.......uhh..........natural, native, brilliant, and has the feel of a "Manual" just without a foot clutch."

Great post!
Ape

 

I tend to agree with that statement. Modern sports cars became so fast and "easy" to drive. I guess the advantage is the "less skilled drivers" are able to have fun at very high speed as these cars are more forgiving thanks to the electronics which act like a nanny making sure they make it to the end of the drive.

Me (and so many other of my F friends), I feel the Cali is an awesome car and so easy to drive yet ... I miss the Ferrari feeling. From what my dealer tells me the 458 will be "easy" to drive and it has "nannies" hidden everywhere to make sure people get away with it safe at the end of the day. I just hope that there will still be that interaction between driver and car which makes e.g. the Scud such a wonderful machine. I hope it will not have a lot of the Cali feel from a driving point of view.

Based on what I heard and learned from talking to my dealer I think I'll pass on the 458 for now and add a Scud to the 599 and I'll wait for the Scud/CS (version whatever it will be called) of the 458.

Cheers,

M

 

Ferrari have stated that the gearbpx might be the same as the Cal but it's going to be retuned to give a feel appropriate to the extreme car in their range.

 

The whole purpose of racing is to go faster than the next guy. every clunk or kick in the back feeling during a shift is less power to the ground and an albeit miniscule drop, the results are evident at the end of a 500 lap race when the winner wins by 3 tenths of a second. People keep talking about the driving experience then the next article is about lab times?? The two are inversely related in my opinion...
Either way, ya gotta like what yer driving....

 

Er... the 458 is not a racing car.

 

I have never driven a California but I have driven other vehicles equipped with similar Dual clutch transmissions. I always found the involvement to be less than that of a manual. That being said, Ferrari is aware of this and I am sure they will make the shifting feel more like their traditional F1 setup on the Italia. I remember reading that Ferrari had thought about slowing down the shift times on their new transmission. I am sure if you turn off the stability control, traction control, etc... the car will be a handful to control and very involved - the California too. Hopefully, the Italia's transmission will not automatically shift at or before red line unless that is what you want it do.

I have never driven an F1 equipped Ferrari but I was lucky enough to go for a ride in an F1 equipped 599 GTB. The gear changes were punishing and fast and I found that to be a great experience. Hopefully, Ferrari can somehow incorporate the positives of their F1 transmission along with the positives of their new dual clutch setup(far less maintenance and incredibly fast shift times) so that everyone can be happy.

 

Uh, yes it is.... Not necessarily track ready as it is, but the platform for there GT involvement where every split second counts...

 

I'll say again. The 458 is not a racing car. It's a road car. What it offers might have qualified it as a racing car 20 years ago, but racing cars move on just as road cars do and so the gap is always there. The 458 might be fast, but it's still just a road car. Even in Scuderia form the 430 wasn't a racing car. It was a road car tuned to give its all on the track. And if you think that makes it a racing car then you don't really know what a racing car is.

 

with every automaker striving for improvement, whether it be racing or for a production car, its inevitable that shift times will be reduced or almost seamless.

the point i believe most Fchatters are making is the fact that no matter how fast these shift times are reduced, driver's involvement or a manual transmission is still desired. as 99% are not racing in Mugello or even the streets of Monaco.

sadly, i believe those days are gone with Ferrari and probably will with most sport cars. i for one, really like the F1 transmission's, especially in sport or race mode but I may be a minority here.

 

I also really love the F1 'box and that's where my money goes, but it is really sad that there'll be no more gear sticks.

 

Right now, I'm not worried. As good as the latest F-1 box is, I think this will be better -- and less hassle and maintenance.

And, for the first time, we should get launch control in the US.

Sounds like a winner to me but I will wait before making that claim.

 

Yeah, what's with the no launch control thing is the U.S? Is it a litigation issue? Mind you, if you use it too often your car will eat itself!

 

If you've followed the GT-R for any amount of time, you will know Yes, it's a litigation issue. Seems like some folks think the manufacturer should pay for all joyrides and abuses of the moving parts when launching aggressively every day. Somehow if you abuse your car, shredding the clutches and gears willingly, it's not your fault.

Consequently, Nissan had to reprogram the rpms at launch on their GR6 DSG unit, recalling in essence, every car, due to a huge class action law suit against them. In ways, I am glad the consumers won the case because, despite some idiotic owners' lack of common sense, Nissan's warranty basically covered nothing as it read originally.

I'd imagine every other maker payed attention to this, or may have had issues of their own beforehand. LC is often opening the door to trouble in general, for both the owner and manufacturer.

At what point is it your "fault" for destroying your own transmission? Since people in the USA sue others at the drop of a hat, as an auto maker, I wouldn't even have a LC feature on the car. Forget it. Ferrari would do well to have LC deleted or have the rpms set very low at launch, per what Nissan did in their software reprogramming.

 

This is the price you pay for progress... The only way to get true feedback is in a car with no (or minimal) electronics. An F40 for instance. As for F1 giving more feedback - that's true, but that doesn't make it 'good'. The feedback (and time lag) is as a direct consequence of inefficiencies in the gearchange cycle which the DSG box eliminates - and from an engineering perspective that can only be good progress. So, from my PoV, the 458 box has to be a step forward.

 

I agree that the Cali trans felt a little lifeless under normal acceleration, but once I pushed it, it was much more enjoyable. I know there will be some tweaks for the 458, assuming it will make the trans feel a little more aggressive, well at least I hope

 

Unaided by advanced technology, cars probably reached their maximum performance levels in the 90's. F1 transmissions, E-gear, traction control, and on and on all advanced performance by doing things humans used to do, but doing them better. If one manufacturer succumbs to driver aids all the rest have to do the same or be left behind. It's kind of like steroids in sports.

Regardless of your position on this, these aids ARE advancements. The original F1 in the 355 was pretty hard to take if you compared it to the level of refinement and involvement of the manual. But, it got better, and the Scud and 16M are fast, smooth, and with the enhancement of the sound of the exhaust, very satisfying to most Ferrari purchasers. The only drawbacks were clutch life, stop-and-go traffic, and the loss of involvement of the gated shifter.

The electronics in the dual clutch system of the latest transmission allow a programable tuning that can be altered for different feels. The California, while having the same transmission as the 458, is supposed to be completely re-programmed for a more aggressive feel. None of us have tried it yet, so let's wait for judgement. At the same time, the reliability and maintenance are supposed to be far superior to the F1. It's kind of an evolution of the Ferrari maintenance requirements somewhat like the change from belts to chains in the 430 and later. I welcome that improvement and think it's overdue in a car of this price range.

 

Hello All,

This is an interesting topic and one that has come up with every new Ferrari as the F1 dual clutch transmissions etc seem to be the wave of modern sports cars. This and a few other posts regarding appearance of the 458 made me remember back several years. I remember when I bought a F355. I loved it from the looks to the driving. It of course had a gated shifter and driving always made me smile. I worked at being skilled at downshifts every time and it brought me miles upon miles of fun and joy. And as ever happens rumors of the replacement to the F355 were coming out. When the 360 came out I went to my dealer as he had said to me I had to drive it and I was going to love it. As one can guess it had a F1 trans and instead of considering the progress Ferrari had made all I saw was a car with an automatic and I hated the way it drove and totally did not want one. A big part of me wanted a more powerful progressive F355 and not a redesigned car that the 360 was. I didn't like the look or no more flip up lights. Once the design grew on me and I drove a gated shift 360 I liked it much more. It handled better it accelerated better it was the next step and it was fun. I admit when the F430 was unveiled I liked it better than the 360 from a design look aspect it to me was what the 360 should have been to begin with. Again my dealer said you have to drive it the new F1 trans is so much better and I admit it is, but still I love the gated shifter of a Ferrari the sound it makes as you shift and the feel of it. To me it is just the way Ferraris are supposed to be.

Now I have since driven many different auto shift transmissions and I see their place. In the M3, the Audis, MBs Astons I totally get it and may be even in the 997. As smooth and good as Porsches PDK is I just don't have fun driving it. If it is in my commuter different I like it and as some may hate me to say this but the 997 with PDK is basically a commuter car in the sense it is what I would consider getting to drive to work etc. I have not driven the California yet and I am due to and I am sure it is as smooth as the Porsche 997 PDK. But for me it is a truly sad day when Ferrari is not going to offer one of their cars with a gated shifter. As much as the new transmission in the 458 is I am sure even better than what has come before I love driving a gated Ferrari and I want to always be able to order my new Ferrari with it. To me I like the progress and for those that want a F1 I think all of you should be able to have it, but I still want my gated shifter and it doesn't bother me that I am shifting slower than the F1 guys. When I take my Ferrari for a drive I want it to be special to me and gated is what I want whether I am going for a drive in the country or I have decided to drive to the office. For me driving a Ferrari is a journey and not just away to get from a to b. There are plenty of good choices to drive to work and sit in rush hour traffic. My Benz is perfect for that.

Just my simple thoughts.
Cheers,
James

 

My M3 has a dual clutch transmission manufactured by the same company building the 458 transmission (Getrag).

There are several bugs in the DCT that my Scuderia doesn't have in the old technology F1 SuperFast2.

1) To get the car moving, the M3 needs a lot of throttle input until it finally engages the gear, and then it is too much throttle. The Cayman and 911 S I drove with the ZF sourced DCT (called PDK by Porsche) also have this feeling, but not as bad as the M3. The Scuderia engages the gear rather quickly and it is progressive with throttle inputs, the regular F430 takes a little longer to engage (a 2005 model I drove), probably a very early iteration of the F1, felt like the Porsche PDK.

2) Gear changes at full gas and redline feel very smooth (boring) in the M3, Cayman, 911S. When you use the Porsche Sport button there is an extra kick on gear changes that makes it feel like the F430 and Scuderia bangs when upshifting, but not yet as wild and not as fun as the Ferrari. Ferrari could use this approach and the gear changes won't feel smooth at full gas and redline.

3) The DCT feels like an automatic transmission with paddles. The Scuderia F1 feels like a manual transmission without clutch pedal. Driving the Scuderia in Auto mode is wrong, it just doesn't work well at all, but if you drive it like a real manual transmission, it works perfect. When I'm having a relaxed drive in the Scuderia, I lift the gas on gear changes, and the car works very smooth. When I want to extract the full performance potential, the shifting occurs at or near redline, no throttle lift, and the Superfast2 takes care of the rest (my car is driven in Race or CST-OFF modes only).

With the Porsche and BMW dual clutch transmission, you feel like driving an automatic transmission. Gear changes up and down are very smooth, no hesitation, no need to modulate the gas on upshift or downshift under regular relaxed driving.

DCT is here to stay and the F1 Superfast2 is obsolete, and the manual transmission is way too obsolete. However, if you want driver's involvement, feedback and fun factor, my choices are a manual transmission, then the F1 Superfast2, then a DCT.

Keep in mind that the F1 Superfast2 is essentially a manual transmission with hydraulic actuators to control the clutch, so design, development and manufacturing costs were shared with the manual transmission. The DCT is a totally new transmission with nothing in common with a 6-speed manual, it would be hard for Ferrari to justify development costs of a manual transmission equipped 458 Italia, especially given the low sales numbers on manual transmission Ferraris in the recent years.

DCT is at the early stages of development. There are two main shaft in these units, so you can have more gears than before, it won't be long for us to start seeing 8-speed and 9-speed DCT transmissions. The 7-speed transmission in the 458 Italia has even shorter gear ratios than the latest 430 Scuderia transmission (already with very close ratios). The smaller main shafts (lighter as well) are much less stressful under hard take off, so it is easier to provide launch control for DCT transmissions. Having two independent and lighter main shafts should improve reliability and reduce clutch wear, the DCT is more reliable from a design standpoint.

 

+1; I agree 100%

 

If this were true, you can call almost any car a race car. Even Caddies had some success in recent years.

Dave

 

Let me rephrase a bit... Doesnt the current challenge series require the same basic drivetrain as the street/production cars?? I personally like the feel of hammering a car through its gears, I want to know I am doing 120.... Maybe the bar is just that much higher and the raw power of a car was at 150 and now because of technology the raw power isn't until 200 and there belies our limitations... Before we know it 250 will be the next 200.... Just as 40 is the new 30....
Tony...........

 

We should make our minds up AFTER we drive it. I can agree it sounds kind of weird shifting so fast, but lets face it, this thing is going to relocate your eyeballs to the back of your brain when you floor it.

 

I drove the California and prefer the F1 of the 599 a lot; cant imagine, that the transmission in the 458 will be so different from the California, but maybe?....