F1 vs Manual Cold Second gear?

I have always read that when cold a manual transmission Ferrari has difficulty shifting from first to second.

Does the F1 have the same problems? And if not, what are the differences that let the F1 shift when cold?

 

AB- For the 360 and 575M, Ferrari beefed up the transmissions with triple cone synchonizers for the first two gears. The transmissions for the F1 and manual shifter cars are identical, so both benefit from easier shifting into second gear, as do the 430/612/599.

A contributing factor is also the availability of much improved multi-weight transmission oils, especially synthetics, which have led to less obstructive shifting for all Ferrari transaxles. The Redline and Valvoline synthetic 75W-90 oils make a huge difference in shifting ease.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Good question. It is not all manual transmissions that have the issue, though. As far as I know it is the 5 speed and not the 6. (at least, from the anecdotal evidence of my 355, 360, 430 friends the 6 speed does not have the same issue)

As I understand it, the issue is a result of the gearbox layout, and the need for extremely careful and precise alignment of the moving parts. Something which didn't always happen when the cars were put together. The move to the 6 speed box included a layout change that reduced the issue dramatically.

of course, I'm not a technician, so I will defer to the pros if I am misinformed...

 

On my last service a few months ago on my 360, I switched to Royal Purple in the Gear box and noticed a big difference when cold.

 

Terry while true most of that is sales hype. They used triple cont syncros before the F1 ever came along. Bad shifting Ferrari transmissions are mostly due to poor lubricant choice and poor shifter adjustment.
F1 transmissions shift well cold because they have 900 lbs of hydraulic pressure doing it for them.

 

Brian- Thanks. I guess that is a bit more pressure than someone can generate with his manual gear-shift.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

I guess that depends on your steroid level.

 

Keep in mind that F1 cars never turn a wheel until the fluid temps are up to temprature. A couple of years ago when Toyota brought their F1 car to Laguna Seca for a demonstration at the Monterey Historics, it took them nearly 40 minutes to get everything up to temp before they started the engine and went out on the track to set the absolute Track record.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhTosVmrJvI

 

I think the question was not about F1 cars but about the semi-automatic manual transmission that Ferrari has called F1, which can be found on the F355, 360 Modena, F430 and so on.


Onno

 

#1: The F1 computer blips the throttle, essentially though not entirely rev-matching, for each shift. Manual Ferrari drivers who blip the throttle on each shift (yes, we're out there) will shift smoothly into 2nd gear even when cold.

#2: The F1 computer doesn't shift early. Many new Ferrari owners of manual shift cars will "lug" their transmissions by shifting at very low rpms such as below 4000. Please understand that transmissions are mechanical beasts...with metal gears/cogs/synchros that can be designed for slow speed, mid-range rpm, or high-speed shifts. Ferrari by nature chooses high-rpm shift designs...and shifting a high-rpm-shift-design transmission at low rpms when cold can easily grind a gear or "clunk." Ferrari drivers who manually shift at high rpms instead of at low rpms will get good clean gearshifts even when cold.

...On top of the above, a manual Ferrari gear owner/driver can improve shifts by using a quality Redline transmission fluid (this is not to say that every Redline gear oil will improve your shifts, I've found Redline's MTL to be particularly bad, but some Redline gear oils like Lightweight Shockproof are wonderful).

 

Why does blipping the throttle on an upshift help?
The engine side drive train needs to slow down not speed up...

What am I missing?

Rgds
Vince

 

You are missing that all trannies are designed in 3 basic groups, rather than all being the same. Some handle low rpm shifts. Some are built for mid-range rpm shifts. More exotic/race vehicles are designed and built with gearing made for high rpm shifts.

If you have a car made for high rpm shifts, then you will get better shifts at higher rpms. Blipping the throttle prior-to and during the shift gives you a higher-rpm shift.

Thus, you get a better shift in such a vehicle.

This is what the F1 tranny does for you if you have an F1 355, and it is how a good manual driver will get smooths shifts in a manual 348 or 355 or 328 or 308 or TR, etc.

 

ND- You get exactly the same thing as a throttle blip on upshifts if you just do not let up on the gas quite as much and the shift will actually be quicker, because the time-consuming blip is not required. The lightweight flywheels on Ferraris tend to lose revs quicker when the throttle is lifted compared to cars with heavier flywheels, hence do not lift as much. Every engine/flywheel/transmission combination is different, but the same technique will work for all of them once the specific combination is learned.

Vince- You are correct. To synchronize revs on upshifts, the revs need to decrease, just like they need to increase on downshifts. ND's blip is required for him because his revs have dropped too much after letting off on the throttle.

Phil Hill used to grump about how the synchro rings on the 250 GTO and other similar cars would slow down his upshifts compared to the dog-clutch transmissions on the prototype and F1 cars. With virtually no flywheel (extremely lightweight), the engines on the prototypes/F1s slowed down just enough with a very slight hesitation to be perfectly synchronized for a rapid, graunchless upshift. They usually double-clutched down through the box for downshifts .

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Save those who still drive vintage machines its become a lost art.

 

David- Affirmative. Those who learned on a Moss gearbox or drove cars with worn out synchronizers were the last to use it in normal operations, except certain trucks. The early Porsche style synchronizers wore out fairly quickly, so you had to double clutch. Even the trucks now tend to have updated transmissions.

With Nissans and Chevrolets now having systems to raise revs on downshifts, even heel and toe may eventually go the way of the Dinosaur. All enabled by digital throttles. No more manual transmission Ferraris after they all go to the DSG transmission. You now cannot even special order a 612 with a manual shifter.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Without sounding too much like a Luddite it seems that every time you gain something you lose something.

 

David- You are right. I think the same thing every time I go out and light my acetylene headlights.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Um, right.
Is your right arm bigger than your left from all that cranking?

 

Nissan doesn't understand heel-toe. I've got a 300zx twin turbo and the pedals are placed entirely wrong...brake pedal is miles from the throttle pedal. It also crunches when shifted cold...unless you blip the throttle or hold the throttle down while shifting. Fine when hot.

Prior to the 300zx tt I owned a 1st generation 300zx that likewise blew its 2nd gear synchro because the pedals were misplaced for proper heel-toe-ing.

The above is what the F1 does *for* the driver during its computerized shifts, as well as what a decent driver will do when the pedals are placed properly. Failing to know the above (finger pointed at Nissan) will likely result in gear-crunches, too!

 

ND- The new 350Z takes all the problems out of manual downshifts because it automatically does the throttle blip for you.

No clue on pedal placement for earlier Nissans because I swore I would never buy another riceburner after Desert Storm. Will not even drive riceburner rentals.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

I think you meant the 370z.