575M HGTC? GTC? FHP? Confused?

I am in the market for a 575M. I know that FHP = Fiorano handling package (ie ceremic brakes, stiffer suspension, shocks, etc.). Do the ceremic brakes really squeak? What does the HGTC and GTC mean? Is there a difference, or does HGTC just mean handling package with GTC? What does the GTC option add to the car?
Thanks!

 

The Fiorano Handling Package has nothing to do with ceramic brakes, those were introduced a lot later.

The HGTC, however, DOES have ceramic brakes. GTC stands for Grand Turismo Coupe and is a code with Ferrari history (e.g. the 365GTC/4 and 330GTC). HGTC therefore stands for Handling Gran Turismo Coupe, which was a specially equipped version of the 575M, the last and outgoing one in fact. I am not 100% about all of this, but IIRC it came with stiffer suspension, ceramic brakes, engine upgrade to 540bhp and maybe some trim details. There is also a 575 GTC but it is a race car that was entered in the Italian GT championship amongst other things. The C in GTC in this case stands for Competizione.

When I drove a 430 Scuderia on a mountain pass 2 months ago I didn't really notice any squeeking, but I did notice that the stopping power of ceramic brakes when they're not up to temperature can be a bit of a surprise...


Onno

 

Does anyone know if there are any manual HGTC cars out there?

 

For sale? not sure but they do exist. I passed on one but it is now located in Greenwich CT

 

Thank you. So there is a 575M GTC and 575M HGTC. The 575M HGTC has the handling pacakge. But what option does the GTC package add to the car? Is it the ceramic brakes or are there other items as well?
Thanks.

 

No the GTC is the race car

For road use

575M

575M FHP

575M HGTC

 

Jerry- This thread has all the details on both FHP and HGTC including the FNA bulletins showing every part used. Also if you do a search on FHP and HGTC, you will get dozens of hits. The FHP Pagid 4-4 pads will have a tendency to squeal until well worn in and will still squeal occasionally even then.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245394


Onno- In this case in Handling GTC (HGTC), the C actually stands for Competizione because of the racing derived CCM brakes. Ferrari actually built competition 575 GTC race cars based on the 550 GTC.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

(from Ferrari Press Release)
The 575 GTC is aimed at private teams participating in the FIA GT championship and will make its debut at the end of the 2003 season. It will also appear in other Granturismo series like the American IMSA and GrandAm series. The `C´ in the name stands for `competizione ´.

The 575 GTC is the racing version of the 575M Maranello. In order to cope with the demands of the track, it is equipped with even more technological advances than the superb road version .

The displacement of the 65° V12 has been increased to 5,997cc with a maximum power output of close to 605 bhp, and the car boasts a sequential shift. The track has been widened, the brakes increased in size and, thanks to the use of composite materials, the body has been lightened. The tubular steel chassis features boxed sections and the all-round wishbone suspension features adjustable antidive geometry.

The car has a split rear wing with a nolder. This set up is the fruit of extensive aerodynamic research in the wind tunnel, something that was also carried out for the adjustable front spoiler and the undertray with its rear extractor.
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If you really want to get specific the model designation is 575M. The FHP and HGTC are optional packages.

 

I had a suspicion that might be the case. Thanks.

Yes, I did mention that in my post.


Onno

 

Thank You!! I'm looking at the two cars you guys have touched on in an earlier tread. The 575M FHP (asking $149K) on ebay right now and the 575M HGTC (asking $130) at ferrari Scottsdale. They both look the same to me cosmetically, but I guess the one in Scottsdale has the ceramic brakes and the one on ebay does not. I don't see any interior or exterior differences between to two besides color of course. Thanks for your time. Been away from Ferrari chat for a few years (starting a new business) and now it is time to get a little pay back.
Jerry

 

The HGTC car is much better than the regular 575 with FHP, if you like a sporty car. For me, it would definitely be worth seeking out the HGTC.

But to be fair, I haven't driven either, I'm going on the opinions of those I trust.


Onno

 

Onno- You hit the nail on the head. HGTC is definitely the most desirable package on a 575M. The difference between these two cars is one has 22,000 miles and a new clutch and the other has less than 5000 miles. Personally, I would go for the HGTC if you intend to keep the car and not turn it over in 2-3 years.

Just like I would like to have the 250 GT SWB Zagato, which has 300,000 miles or so.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

I like a man of simple pleasures.


Onno

 

Paul- I would settle for just the body on that car. Could have someone build a chassis and drivetrain if I had to.

Not sure any of those parts would fit, but she has a nice big trunk, so could try.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Having now had another good session with my 03 non FHP car, I am struggling to see the major issues pointed out by the British press regarding dive and squat and the ability to scrape the nose of the car after hitting the bumpy British roads. There is a lot of comment over this way, that Ferrari quietly changed the ECU and map of the dampers after the initial press cars, and my experience would back this up, however there does not seem to be any part number changes to the ECU. As I intend next spring to fit the FHP I am worried that the ecu side of things is a relative unknown (suspension). Springs and roll bars I can understand.... Steering ECU is a must too as standard it feels a bit detached. As I mentioned in other posts, some Ferrari dealers have fitted just the HGTC ECU to non FHP cars with good results. That seems strange to me, as just changing the dampers map without springs and roll bars could lead to a proper mixed bag.

Final question, the expensive part of FHP are the brake calipers, pads upgrade is an easy one, and I must say I find the brakes a bit wooden in feel, but what the heck is different between the calipers for a 1000 usd difference in price? Anyone know? At that level I will go pads first, probably Pagid yellow, any other suggestions?

Thanks

Paul

 

Just researched a bit more, and think I have the ECU answer. On Ricambi, for RHD cars only, there are 3 ECU modules listed, 183960, 201673 and 205618 all fitted upto assembly 47497. I assume that assembly number is when the steering sensors were fitted, and hence why the later ecu from HGTC will not work on earlier cars as Terry said, but it seems updates were still being developed. But it does confirm that the RHD UK cars were getting updates as my dealer suggested, mainly when customers complained enough.

So I need to get part 205618 fitted, if it is not already there. For later cars there are again 3 ECU updates for RHD cars until assembly 52555 (part 205619, one up from the earlier assembly number last ECU update, so I assume of a similar nature)

Looks like the UK market gave them some real problems as these upgrades are for RHD only.

Wen I work out out to get access to the ECU, will let you know what is fitted, and advise what the impact is of gettng the latest ECU for my build (205618 part) and the steering ECU changed.

 

Correct. I went for an HGTC and am happy with the decision. I find the HGTC to be a classic car after other cars that I have had recently (599, Scuderia, 16M) but with personality. A 575 FHP would be of no interest to me

 

I think the main question is whether the HGTC Shock Absorber ECU will fit the earlier cars. Earlier information I had said it would not, but now, I am not so sure. Might just have to work a deal with Daniel at Ricambi and see if the ECU will fit my pre-assembly number 52556 car.

There was definitely something going on early in the UK 575M's lifespan. I heard there was even a recall for software updates or a new ECU, but across the pond here I have no way to check. If a UK owner could get details from their dealer, it might help with that puzzle. It is possible to reflash ECUs, so that might explain why there is no corresponding parts number change.

The only heavy-duty complaints about 575M handling originated from the UK press in 2002, so Ferrari may indeed have reacted very quickly. Of course, there were also some ridiculous statements made in both the UK and US press about Ferrari rushing 19" wheels and a handling package into production, when both were available throughout production, and even spelled out in the original sales brochure.

I am relatively certain the HGTC F1 ECU will fit all 575Ms and that would give the quicker shifts (180 ms vs 250 ms) of the HGTC. Not that big a deal to me, but the shifts might also be smoother as the next generation F1 systems for the f430 and 612 were brought on line.

If one of you HGTC owners would do us a favor and measure the diameter of your rear anti-roll bar, we could answer the question of whether the FHP 22 mm bar was replaced by a 19.5 mm bar for HGTC. Ferrari may have decided FHP was a little too neutral for the average 575M driver and tuned in a bit more understeer. One more piece of the puzzle.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

I too would appreciate a quick hint as to where they are so I can report back - I've checked the drawings but am unsure if the location is behind front wheel arch in cabin or with fuses in passenger footwell - tia

 

Jimmie- There is an access panel below your passenger side carpet mat. Pull out the mat, unfasten the cover, and the fuzes and ECUs are under the panel. The F1 ECU is behind the seats and the Motronic ECUs are in the engine compartment.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Unfortunately UK layout is different due to RHD and if I read Ricambi drawing 134 correctly as item 15 & 35 are different it carries the implication that the suspension ECU 40 is located on the drivers side - in a way I guess my question has now become where are the brackets 15 & 35 as well as the steering ECU 33 which I have yet to locate ?

Amended to add just found 34 which should be next to 33 (black about an inch and a quarter square ?) up above the drivers right ankle tucked away behind / in front of the engine cover latch

 

Jimmie- Should have remembered you were form SE England, not our deep south. Unfortunately (for you), the parts cataligs and WSMs are written around LHD cars.

Incidentally, if you need a WSM, which shows very well where all the components are (for LHD, at least), they are available from Kurt White [[email protected]]. I highly recommend getting the separate technical bulletins CD he also sells. You can also get a parts catalog, flat rate book, and ECU/OBD II Codes document from him if you need them.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Yes indeed - rhd - thanks for the suggestion re Kurt White

If you can confirm where the brackets are on the lhd (as last post) I 'm hopeful of finding the unit and hence a part number to compare with montpellier's car (who I think also has yet to find his ECU)