Manor F1 car on schedule | FerrariChat

Manor F1 car on schedule

Discussion in 'F1' started by jknight, Oct 7, 2009.

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  1. jknight

    jknight F1 Veteran

    Oct 30, 2004
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    Looks on schedule as planned. And they will NOT be using a wind tunnel. Wirth has designed some top winning cars.

    Carol


    Manor Grand Prix's first chassis should be completed by the end of November and testing at the beginning of February, according to designer Nick Wirth.

    Manor has formed a partnership with the Wirth Research company and Wirth is confident that his design of the team's 2010 F1 car is progressing well.

    "We are already assembling components on a mock-up chassis, the first real chassis is being built and should be ready in four or five weeks' time."

    "I'm very satisfied with the way crash tests are going and therefore I predict that the first car will be able to start running on the track at the beginning of February."

    Wirth admits that Manor is likely to be at the back of the grid to begin with, but believes the changes to the regulations next year will give the team an opportunity to move forward.

    "We'll start from the back but we hope to be in front of the other new teams, then we'll begin to put pressure on the consolidated teams," he said.

    "The new regulations this year have mixed things up compared to 2008 and next year the rules will again be very different, and will require cars just as different - particularly with regards to the larger fuel tanks, heavier weight, tyres, aerodynamics...

    "This set of changes should not be underestimated because it means there will still be room for surprises.

    "If the 2010 rules were the same as this year, I would have been very worried, instead I'm a lot less so."

    He confirmed that the car would be entirely designed and constructed without using a wind tunnel.

    "We use no wind tunnels. We are developing the aerodynamics completely on the computer with the CDF system. We won't do even one day in the wind tunnel, not even for a check."


    Manor GP is set to confirm a commercial partnership with Virgin next month and Wirth says that driver announcements could follow shortly afterwards.

    "We'll soon announce our commercial partner and, I think, also the drivers, since many have shown sizable interest in doing a programme with our team," he said.
     
  2. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Going without tunnel test is a bold move and a huge gamble. Is it due to their great faith in the simulator or a lack of bucks?
     
  3. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    His customers all seem to believe in the system. They sub for several F1 teams IIRC.
     
  4. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    We'll see, won't we?
     
  5. jknight

    jknight F1 Veteran

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    Brian, was the Acura done in the same manor?

    Thanks,
    Carol
     
  6. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Well, i hope Sir Richard will take over this team.
     
  7. ACross32

    ACross32 Formula Junior

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    They claim to be making the same progress as USF1 claims to, also with crash tests being done already. Not sure how the no wind tunnel thing will pan out. My guess is that they will never come close to points and not get out of Q1 all season.

    Good to (somewhat) hear from the new teams lately:
    USF1 claims to be on schedule
    Manor claims to be on schedule
    Campos last week or earlier this week, along with Williams is attempting to block the entry of a 14th team...maybe in the interest of selling their slot on the grid?
     
  8. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    yes, the ALMS cars.

    Wirth made a cute capable car in the Simtec albeit in the 90s but has been current with CFD for some of the F1 teams.

    It COULD be that Anderson will amaze us all, maybe he has been pushing ahead at night with a full size mock up in his tunnel, he could have made copies of other cars and done comparisons. With the wind tunnel time limited for established teams, he could have been working on it up until the entry was accepted. I wonder though that Windbag did say that a 'roller' would be ready and wind tunnel would start and then added that 'an initial body would be added shortly after'. Wouldn't that be part of the aerodynamic requiorement, a body?

    Still no word back to my associates regarding vacancies, I wonder where the workers came from, most are still under contract with current employers til season end or beyond. Windbag did say that the personnel would be experienced and american where possible IIRC?
     
  9. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    I don't think that any of the new guys are unrealistic to expect beyond Q1. They are using old technology engines, bespoke transmissions and new chassis. Maybe under right circumstance and weather they will pull a "Force India" on us. they have 4 straightline tests available before the end of year, then 1500kms before the first race. Uphill for even the best.
     
  10. ACross32

    ACross32 Formula Junior

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    Good point...the Cosworths will likely be a huge crutch for all teams using them, unless of course the FIA does follow through on inhibiting the performance on some of the more advanced engines, as has been reported in the past weeks.
     
  11. robert_c

    robert_c F1 Rookie

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    Pun intended?
     
  12. Earthboundmisfit

    Earthboundmisfit Formula Junior

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    Realistically, they'll be dealing with a micro-budget. They wouldn't be doing that by choice.
     
  13. AustinMartin

    AustinMartin F1 Veteran

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    It was, no wind tunnels were used when designing.
     
  14. ACross32

    ACross32 Formula Junior

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    How has the Acura fared in competition?

    ....aside from Scott Sharp's recent incident.
     
  15. jknight

    jknight F1 Veteran

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    #15 jknight, Oct 7, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2009
    here's one of many articles including photos regarding the ARX-02a and it talks about Nick Wirth and Wirth Engineering in the UK - interesting to note is that all four wheels on the LMP1 car are the same size - this weekend at Laguna Seca will decide the ALMS P1 Championship - it will be Acura, either Gil deFerran or Duncan Dayton's Patron Highcroft team http://www.***************.com/car/4025/Acura-ARX-02a.html you'll have to retype the *** which is *************** then copy/paste the remainder...sorry

    Adrian Fernandez already clinched the LMP2 championship in a year old Acura, unfortunately for Adrian his contract ran out with Lowes and another sponsor was not apparently found and from what I read the car is already sold - Adrian secured the championship over the Dyson Lola/Mazadas

    Just read this and it was news of today regarding Manor - here's the article and photos http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/cars/400190/manor-grand-prix-sneak-preview.html

    article text: Manor Grand Prix has issued a basic look at its 2010 Formula 1 car. The first chassis should be completed by Wirth Research by the end of next month "We are already assembling components on a mock-up chassis, the first real chassis is being build and should be ready in for or five weeks' time." The car will be fully developed in CFD like the Wirth Acura ARX-02a.
    THESE GUYS ARE FOR REAL.....

    Carol

    Here's the text for the referenced url that doesn't want to play fair... you'll have to go googling for the photos that accompany this

    For a brief period in the early 1990s, sports prototype racers were closely related to contemporary Formula 1 cars. This was the result of identical engine regulations, devised to make F1 a more appealing prospect for the many manufacturers that were active in sports car racing. It led to some of the finest racing cars ever built but eventually the FIA got their way and almost every big manufacturer jumped onto the F1 bandwagon. Of course there have been similarities in designs since but no sports car has come so close to F1 than the new Acura ARX-02a launched early in 2009. This is no coincidence as the chassis and bodywork were designed by Nick Wirth's company. Most of his past experience lies in Formula 1 both as a designer and team owner.

    Developed by Wirth Research in England and Honda Performance Development in California, the Acura LMP1 racer has taken the 'F1' route more by necessity than by choice. With the ARX-01a/b LMP2 racer used with considerable success in 2007 and 2008, Acura ran a similar engine as its biggest competitors, a Naturally Aspirated 3.4 litre V8. The engines used in LMP1 are more diverse and despite the ACO's best efforts, performance is certainly not equal. The method used by the French governing body is to restrict air-flow to the engine according to its size and aspiration. Although this a good way to limit power high in the rev band, it does little to cut torque and that's why diesel engines still have an advantage. With almost all of Acura's production cars powered by Naturally Aspirated petrol engines and only a limited budget available, the team had little choice but to further develop the existing V8 engine. The chassis would have to make up for the deficit.

    With power at a premium, Nick Wirth concentrated on generation as much mechanical grip and downforce as possible. Things were complicated further with changes in the regulations considering the maximum width of the rear wing. Wirth's unusual solution was to fit rear tires on the front, increasing the contact patch by 7%. One of the drawbacks was the need for wider front fenders, which came at the expense of the space between the fenders and monocoque. This limited the all important airflow passed the monocoque into the side-pods. To solve this, Wirth developed a raised nose with a 'zero keel', almost identical to that of a current F1 car. The big difference is the width of the monocoque required for the sports car's 2-seater layout. The combination of the wider wheels and 'zero keel' nose leaves little room for the suspension arms. These were of conventional design except for the relatively long torsion bars. Both front and rear suspension feature push-rod actuated dampers and a 'third' damper to provide additional balance.

    While the chassis was developed in England, HPD reworked the 3.4 litre V8 engine. The displacement was raised to four litre by reworking the crankshaft. Interestingly the heads were carried over. With the current restrictors the high revving V8 produces in excess of 620 bhp. One of the main advantages of the Naturally Aspirated V8 is its size and weight. It also requires far fewer ancillaries than the heavy and complex diesel engines. The new LM-AR7 engine is bolted to the monocoque as far forward as possible to get the best weight balance. The six-speed gearbox was sourced at British expert Xtrac. It is operated by paddles fitted behind a bespoke steering wheel. Similar to a F1 steering wheel, it incorporates the dashboard display. The running chassis of the ARX-02a is a showcase of minimalistic design. It weighs in well under the 900 kg minimum, which offers the opportunity to carefully adjust the balance with the ballast.

    With its sharp and elegant lines, it is hard to imagine that the Acura was designed to generate maximum downforce. That's exactly what is needed on the tight and twisty tracks used for the American Le Mans Series (ALMS). For the development of the aero-package Wirth used Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) and more traditional wind-tunnel tests for the really complicated simulations. If Acura decides to race the ARX-02a at Le Mans, a complete redesign of the body would be required. To make the most of the smaller rear-wing, Wirth's team developed a new mounting method. The so called 'swan necks' allow for a maximum amount of surface area of the wing. Interestingly Audi came up with exactly the same solution without ever seeing the Acura's new rear wing. Even the unusually thick front 'dive-planes' are designed to send more air over the rear wings.

    Two cars were assembled, one for de Ferran Competition and the other for Duncan Dayton's Highcroft Racing. Ahead of a full ALMS seasons, the ARX-02a was first seen testing at Sebring late in 2008. By that time it had become clear that there would be no serious competition in the LMP1 class during most of the races. However at the season opener, the Sebring 12 Hours, the two Works supported Acura teams would face the might of the Audi and Peugeot teams. With the confirmation of the four diesel cars, there was plenty of incentive to push on and have the new Acura ready. The public debut came at the official 'wheels down winter' test at Sebring during the end of January. Instead of trying to shield the car from their prying lenses, photographers were all invited to a closer look at all the details. With no other LMP1 cars present, it was no surprise that the two ARX-02as were quickest.

    The first real test came at the Sebring race-week halfway through March. Peugeot brought their seasoned 908 HDI Fap Coupe and Audi debuted the R15 TDI. The new Audi boasted a diametrically opposed design philosophy. Unlike the ultra-clean Acura, the R15 has many intricate aerodynamic elements to make the most of the airflow. It was quite amazing that the same regulations could form the basis for three so very different designs. Even more amazingly the three machines managed to set quite similar lap times. In the pre-race test and practice sessions the diesels were regularly a little quicker but not much. During qualifying on a completely clear track, Scot Dixon in the de Ferran car set an amazingly quick lap time that proved to be good enough for pole. Acura's weekend was already a success and Wirth had proven that a really good petrol car could be as quick around a lap as the diesels.

    During the first hundred meters of the race a slightly different picture emerged. The immense torque of the diesel allowed the second placed Allan McNish to immediately pull clear of Dixon on the start/finish straight. After only a few laps the four diesels had grabbed the lead, leaving the new Acuras back in fifth and sixth. Relying so much on maintaining their momentum in the corners, the Acuras lost a lot of time in traffic. Eventually both cars retired from the race with technical problems. In race conditions the torque of the diesels made the difference and sadly there is little mechanical grip or downforce can do about that. After Sebring Audi and Peugeot returned to Europe to concentrate on their Le Mans preparations. It is uncertain whether either will return to the United States later in the year and until then the two Acuras will race each other.

    Three weeks later at the short St. Petersburg ALMS race the two Acuras were back out. De Ferran's car clinched pole but once again suffered from a break down. This left the honour of clinching the ARX-02a's first victory to the Patron Highcroft car driven by Scott Sharp and David Brabham. Development work is currently focused on reliability but there is more to come from the engine would the Acura's be challenged again. Whether that would ever be enough to counter the might of the diesels is highly debatable. Even before Sebring there were rumours of the plug being pulled but hopefully Wirth Research and HPD are allowed to continue but in these difficult times nothing is certain. From 2011 onwards new regulations will come into effect that will suit the lean and mean ARX-02a even more than the current ones. Until then the Acura will certainly win many more races.

    * * * * *
    Not to be forgotten is the fact that Manor has been linked with Richard Branson’s Virgin group and has admitted interest in signing current A1GP champion Adam Carroll. Fantastic choice for a driver.
     
  16. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    Due to the lack of bucks, they have great faith in the simulator. ;)
     
  17. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Well said.
    Even mighty McLaren and their much vaunted simulator came up with a sub-par (for them) car at the start of the season.
     
  18. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    Doesn't the aircraft industry use CFD, I believe the new Boeing 787(?) totally designed this way.

    I'm pretty sure I saw a program on the Raptor which was all simulation until the prototype flew. Now that's belief in a product!
     
  19. jknight

    jknight F1 Veteran

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    most definitely so, there a heck of a lot more at stake than with a F1 car and I think with the success of the Acura ALMS car the lack of windtunnel speaks for itself......it hung right up there with the Audis and Peugeots

    Carol
     
  20. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    We often see reports from straightline tests where they spend all day barely making it down a runway. With the programs they have, playing songs with the exhaust and such, you'd think they could do more in-house before the test?

    I also wonder how the Cossie electronics will configure. At Indy, a team is pre-programmed for usage, time, rpm's etc. You can only warm up the car in the shop using the programme supplied.

    No word on transmission choice from any of the newbies either?
     
  21. Modena360-66

    Modena360-66 Formula Junior

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    #21 Modena360-66, Oct 8, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2009
    They've been able to come back on top though.
    maybe their thing is not so bad after all?
     
  22. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Not so bad but not as good as they initially thought.
     
  23. SMS

    SMS F1 Veteran

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    We'd hate to lose you as a local mechanic, but have they notified you to relocate yet? ;)
     
  24. SMS

    SMS F1 Veteran

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    #24 SMS, Oct 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  25. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    Good days! Before big $$, we could work hard, play hard but everybody would help anyone.

    Modern F1 nor IRL would not be for me even if I lost a couple lbs. and were 20 years younger.

    Besides what would you'll do? You'd miss me I hope?

    Brian
     

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