328 Fog/Driving Lights

Hello,

Do you intend to make the turn signal too ?

I have been still on the market for one (euro version) for one year already !

I'd consider a set of yours too.

Cheers,

EP75.

 

By the way, anybody tried the one's from "squadra nuvolari" ?

A feed back would be appreciated.

Cheers,

EP75

 

Those were the Ebay ones I had mentioned. They may be cheaper and not glass, but the winner will be the guy who can sell a replacement with easy swap directions. And if Verell hasn't solved it, it aint easy.

 

I was told by a Ferrari shop owner to not be confused and buy a set of 328GTB/S Fog light/
turn signals. Something about a dimensional difference (1/2 inch in height or length?). What do you know about this and I'm in same boat only have one side the right and the clear glass lense is broken. The amber turn signals are plastic, broken and replaceable thru existing sources? Again this is for a mid model Mondial 3.2..It is sealed well and well made as it is a Carrello fixture.How come no sources from Italy?

 

Both of mine were destroyed in an accident last year - including the housings. Tony from Squadra Nuvolari supplied rebuilt replacements with plastic lenses. It's very difficult to tell their not OEM.

 

Verell ,
There will be something simple that will dissolve it and hopefully not ruin the housing or the aluminum reflective coating on the reflectors or the plastic housing. Housing plastic material is critical, needs to be unaffected by adhesive dissolver. Just a matter of finding out what will work. Methylene chloride, MEK, Acetone, Zylene something nasty but effective I will test my sample since housing is still good just glass lens is broken

 

I hope you're right, I didn't think to try solvents.

However, I'm skepticall as Ferrari never sold individual replacement lenses, just complete housings. I suspect that being able to easily replace lenses was not a design goal.

From it's appearance & behavior while I was trying to trim it out, the adhesive seemed to be similar to a butyl or urethane based windshield adhesive. If it's a urethane, then ***ettaboutit, it ain't going to dissolve.

From the appearance & behavior, I suspect the housing is ABS so I think you'll find that MEK, toluene and similar solvents will attack it. I suggest starting with mineral spirits, acetone, xylene as they're the least aggressive of the organic solvents after alcohols.

 

I'm pretty sure the case isn't polyurethane, or even HDPE. It felt & acted like ABS which is the plastic most commonly used for auto applications.

Anything that'll dissolve a urethane (eg: aircraft paint stripper, or MEC) will dissolve just about any other plastic even more rapidly except for the pte (Teflon) varients, and the polyethylenes.
And, yes, most paint strippers are MEC based, usually a MEC & toluene blend with viscosity enhancers & colorants.

However, I may be mistaken so go for it.

 

Yes, I agree with all you've written, I have my fixture out of the bumper and in hand now and will stand corrected. I also visited the local shop for small quantities of all the basic solvents. when I thought of polyethylene, I was looking at the turn signal case. Clearly it is a harder less flexible than the poly I thought it was. In general it all looks like styrene types of plastics for the cases or housings. Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) is as you say probably what it is, although it could be a simpler cheaper polystyrene but all the basic solvents will affect either so it doesn't matter... what it is we are concerned about is the glue stuff which I now suspect is similar chemistry. In order to work and seal it likely has some etching or softening capability to it in order to stick to the plastic and seal as well as it does. I'm assuming when you write "hdpe" you are talking about high density polyethylene.This rang a bell and I recalled the rubber membrane (EPDM)(Ethylene Propylene Diene Monomer) type used for porch roofing or shower underlayment (the glue holding the glass lens feels more like that stuff ) which also uses some solvent based glue to install that membrane stuff. It's the Butadiene aspect that is polymered with the other two to make the ABS and is also the base for many rubber based compounds of which the glue is probably one of them which is why it sticks so well and trying to separate them without damage is the ultimate issue. Yet when I look it up there doesn't seem to be any solvents shown for it.

Wikipedia consult "ABS polymers are resistant to aqueous acids, alkalis, concentrated hydrochloric and phosphoric acids, alcohols and animal, vegetable and mineral oils, but they are swollen by glacial acetic acid, carbon tetrachloride and aromatic hydrocarbons and are attacked by concentrated sulfuric and nitric acids. They are soluble in esters, ketones and ethylene dichloride." I'm guessing MEK(etone) qualifies here ) and ethylene dichloride(methyl chloride qualifies here?, Is this what you are calling MEC?).

Since we don't want affect the plastic maybe we must concentrate on the acids (organics) but maybe the glue is just as resistant. Testing is the only choice I guess? next stop swimming pool store for some hydrochloric acid.

AS you well know these are the usual ingredients in paint, epoxy and polyurethane strippers along with the toluene and I'll Guess I will try to inject it into the bead of the rubber seal and try my best to keep it off the styrene plastic so I don't ruin it. Remember when you were young and built your first models and got glue fingerprints all over them, I'm afraid of that, and clearly, finesse is the order of the day. But again this maybe the wrong tact.

But ultimately it maybe a combination of x-acto knife blades and good ole elbow grease since the materials seem to be in the same families. I wonder if one of those trick saws they advert on the tube might work. But these were all mentioned in previous posts and my suggestion was thru chemistry... I'd like to freeze the glue with liquid nitrogen(fresh out in the garage) and chip it out but what are the chances the plastic wont break also. Not giving up will let you know how it works.

 

OK, we're in sync as to what we suspect the materials to be. I wasn't thinking and wrote MEC, but as you surmised, I meant MEK.

The glass is about a 3/8" or maybe 7/16" deep V shape glued into a rectangular housing groove.

It's not too hard to cut thru & remove the glue between the glue & the outside of the groove. Suggest you pare some out & test your solvents, etc. on some of the cut-out scraps. That way you don't risk thumbprinting your housing while experimenting.

What was a PITA was cutting the inside of the lens free from the groove. I made a V shaped cutting tool, but it kept breaking as it takes a lot of force to cut the glue.

 

Verell,
I will follow your suggestions since you've been there. Is the edge of the glass v shaped with an angle on each side or with a flat side to the inside or to the out side. Did you have a sense that the glue sticks to the plastic or the glass better? My concern is getting to the inside since I have only the small hole. did you simply sacrifice your glass? Are you familiar with wood block(linoleum) carving tools that screw into a wood handle and one of them is v shaped and you push away instead of cutting toward you ...small chisel like tools. Your tools like that? Do you think it would be possible to cut thru the glue windshield style with a garrotte or wire like, wire saw if you could get it started?

I'm more worried being able to remove (save) the glass than ruining the housing. Sacrificing the glass itself would be the easiest but ultimately I would like to be able save the glass itself.This will be huge unless some chemical makes it easy. Mine was broken(Cracked) in such away that only about 2" sq inches was lost out of the center but its still in 4 pieces. If I was able to save it I would glue it back together and rebuild the missing section to have a master pattern (I doubt someone will loan a good pair of lenses, where would they exist separate from the housings anyway. But were I to have a pair I'd invest in a pair of metal mold (patterns).

I have to find my glassblower friend from 30 years ago.( quick little story, I met him when I just got out of college and was working my second job in the semiconductor industry. He and a couple of buddies(immigrants) had contracted them themselves out as a cottage industry(Separate facility within the Main facility on site) to blow and fabricate all the glass equipment and furnace tube modifications that was used for National Semiconductor on both coasts mid 70's, a couple of poor immigrants, from Yugoslavia (Serbo-Croats long before the big blow up that were able to get out and come to USA) who got out after apprenticing as glassblowers (like from the age of 14 ) they were now late 20's and were true artists . The comparison to other quote glass blowers was you could go to a carnival and buy little animals that were made from solid 1/4" glass rod, deer, bunnies, dogs, cats, etc. heat, bend, build up, glue like style, anything, everyone has seen the stuff, all kinds of things. Because I was a young designer at the time they showed me all kinds of stuff and the techniques that they could really do. I could name any animal and size and I could come back 2 hours later and they would have blown the animal from HOLLOW tubing sometimes starting with 1 1/2 " diameter and drawing it down to capillary size if necessary so all the bodies and legs and such were hollow and out of PYREX no less so you could dishwash (heat being the issue on fragile glasswork) the stuff it was truly amazing, anyway the upshot was that these guys had a multi-million dollar company in their 20's. That was hand work(play)for them, machine work (contract stuff, consisted of a 6' lathe that could hold 6" diameter pure quartz tube (milled directly from the earth as a tube, heated and lathed until it was clear) or smaller diameter Pyrex tubing that instead of a cutting tool the tool turret was flame burner that could close off the end of a tube and with a blowing attachment fitted they could heat wherever and create flasks of any size and shape using carbon blocks mounted on paddles. Any additional maze of required tubing could be added exterior or interior to base piece.

So I have a little insight into glass making and know that making glass lenses is basic stuff made in simple press molds (metal). Alternatively, I would make simple silicone mold to make wax plugs which would then be dipped in a ceramic slurry and fired leaving a simple casting mold (a lost wax process) the ceramic slurry molds could then be filled with molten glass. A master metal mold might work better and would probably have enough casting longevity to last fifty years for the projected number of replacements required. I'm surprised it hasn't been done since the past attempts have been only in plastic reproductions and yet the glass is the easiest part to replicate (would want all the Carrello markings intact should be fairly easy in casting but not a machining). I'm also aware of the shrink factor and with wax you can simply dip candle making style to build up where its critical. However, on these lenses the as much as 3% (some have even shown formulas for this in other threads or even this one) I wouldn't think is all that critical because of the space in the glue in channel) ah the Nuances!

The more intricate dilemma is that HOUSING !. It is very complicated and is beautifully casted by the Italians They are experts at plastic technology (in the design and furniture world their plastic and glass (Murano and others) industries were the leaders) and a Ferrari is full of intricate plastic stuff, sticky plastics over time not withstanding. I'm still studying the casting, one item that bothers me is the way the smaller lamp fixtures are welded into the housing and the little rubber boots around wires as they come out and the little vent snorkel in rubber. Its not so much that these are difficult to make they aren't (simple RTV molds) just that there is a myriad of parts like the ball ended screws that make up the fog light adjusters and the mounting screws. And those riveted little fixtures that serve as bases for the adjusting screws to bear against. There are a myriad of little parts in those housings. I would think the housing could be written for CNC machining but then there isolating (electrically) the fixtures from the billet. Maybe it could be machined from a plastic block,The reflectors themselves are simple castings from simple molds although they were injected molded by the thousands they wouldn't be difficult to redo in small batches mostly tedious and time consuming but you'd need a batch of them to go to the electroplaters to get aluminised, Even here I think these could easily be put in a run with someone elses parts on a small batch basis no need for huge quantities and minimum run quantities its more like powder coating in that ...one baking but lots of different parts. Hmmm, maybe chrome powder coat on metal reflectors might work instead of little electroplated plastic ones...have one of those in the family (a powder coater ah side conference) I think the chrome reflection doesn't have to be as a high a standard as is available (Ferrari) the chrome (aluminized plastic), powder coat maybe good enough. For low volumes though I always think artisan style lost wax castings can be very accurate and simpler to obtain. Once the ceramic mold (flask) is made they can be handled like rotational plastic granular castings in small home ovens
I'm even thinking about high temp silicone molds for these housings since they are making 400 degree or higher baking molds for household use. Plastic (abs) bead casting stock is available in bulk or small quantities. We haven't even determined yet whether they are thermoset or thermoplastic.

I know several people have investigated or attempted to make reproductions of some various parts. I"m not sure any have come to fruition yet (save the usurous one). I queried in here somewhere about the 328 turn signal being dimensionally different from the 3.2 Mondial, since the 328s don't have a integrated foglight (or does have an actual separate fog light) like the early Mondial?). So which to make which has the greater call. I'll have to check my photo file on the 328s
But first things first.. gotta get that lens separated intact if possible.

 

Both sides of the V lens mountingn area are tapered.

The adhesive seems to bond equally well to the glass and the housing.

I was trying to remove a good lens & leave a good housing so couldn't damage either. I only had the lens borrowed for a couple of months & only got the glue removed from the outside of the V before I had to reseal it & return it to it's owner.

I'd totally forgot about the linoleum carving tools.
BTW, The adhesive is so hard that you can only cut about 1/8" deep before you're likely to break the tool due to the force required to cut along it. I was using some high quality steel dental surgery tools. They'd take a razor edge. However, I broke a couple of them by trying to make too deep a cut.

So you'll actually need several tools with varying V leg lengths.



> I know several people have investigated or attempted to make reproductions of some various parts. I"m not sure any have come to fruition yet...

If you're talking about reproducing parts in general, I've been makeing a growing selection of parts since 2002. I have both RTV/polyurethane and also injection molding capability. This post has a partial list of them: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137219112&postcount=88 Also, search for threads with 'unobtainium' in the title. For a current list, send eMAIL to:
Verell(at)UnobtainiumSupply(dot)com (please make the obvious character substitutions.)

 

I realize your trying to repro a lens and there is the protective tape too but.....

How about molding a cover to fit over the lens, much like the ones used for driving lights on 4x4 vehicles?

Just a thought..

 

Verell,
Great info and I'll send that email request. Lately I've made a concentrated effort to read the entire website and I'm very impressed by the number or great fixes for common issues and problems and also some unique ones, such as this, which grows out the frustration of not being able to update bumpers by simple purchase. But clearly that "V-12 308" thread takes the "eclair" but I hope the FI can be sorted out before the decade is over for his sake.

I have the personal capability to do current composite work carbon, Kevlar, regular fiberglass (FRP) etc. and have made a few items but not for the Ferrari... somebody has already beaten me to the punch on carbon interior pieces for a number of Ferrari models etc, but I wasn't interested in doing it as a business but sometimes one offs are fun and not so grueling to take the fun out of it. I had a lot of experience in Architectural FRP ornamentation designing, supervising production and installation at well known theme parks in my career.Therefore, I know that anything you can dream up can be made quickly, easily and cheaply or the opposite depending on the methods used or required and with great precision. I'm especially proud of my Kevlar "bulletproof" firewall that I made for my Alpine GT4 sealing off the fuel cell between the rear passenger seat bulkhead and the rear engine compartment. the crude FRP original one didn't quite get it so simple wet layups over the 2 piece originals were a snap....oh.... to have autoclave! and a couple of bolts of prepreg.....party time!

I remember when I would gladly pay the Ferrari tax ( Mondials never seemed so bad except for a few parts) for parts when they were broken or missing but lately there seems to be that newer Ferrari tax which is reflective of the new car cost of 250,000 and up just because a new car bumper costs (PAB) pick a number, 8,000.00 doesn't mean old bumpers should now cost the same. I know pricing is based on wages etc, but geeeeeez,the unobtanium factor is killer.!

Too bad you weren't able to get a simple plaster cast of the lens or a RTV (silicone) one just for the record.
It's also unfortunate that we don't have a pile of used fixtures like many other brands of vehicles shops or junkyards (salvage) where you could sacrifice a handful to make a few good parts. For example getting a couple of good lenses would be easy if we could sacrifice a couple of housings just saw off the lens and the carefully grind away the excess plastic Voila!. Same for the housings just bust out the glass use a high speed dremel and rout down into the groove wasting the glass remnants and saving the housing. This is one of the few cases where an exact duplicate is requested, usually our beloved are so good, what we need or want is something that needs to be actually better when the original didn't quite cut it.(like the power window fixes or the fuse block replacements).

I applaud all those you went before and have offered up various improvements be they knowledge or part based. Also the listed parts sharing between different years and other models of other vehicles. It certainly makes living with the "divas" more pleasurable.

Ultimate request?....... if anyone has a LEFT side unit (foglight/turn signal) and wouldn't mind sharing it for a while, be it broken glass good housing or good glass broken housing or any combination of broken the use for a couple of weeks would allow impressions(non destructive to be taken for the record and possible reproductions. A whole unit is not very useful and therefore not requested unless for sale (highly unlikely, I know, "One in hand is worth 10-20 in the bush" ....in this case..like a gollum "protect the precious" ).

 

Mark,
Looking forward to see how yours comes out !. Curious, how was your mold made? Will yours have typ. production numbers and indexes and other typ.markings on the new lens.
Ross

 

Hey John, I thought about this also. It doesn't provide a legitimate spare in the case of a disaster, but a clear, vacuum-formed? snap-on cover would at least provide better protection than film.

 

Good idea re: the protective cover. It sorta defeats the reason for driving lights but if it was clear it would probably work fine.

 

Yes, If it were clear it - great. Next concern is the heat generated by the light itself. If it were halogen bigger concern and I dont think the bulb is halogen...

Just a thought...

I did try to search for a moldable plastic recently, found some and not ones that I feel would do well with this application...

 

Great work Mark!