What is it like to race a high horsepower car?

I have some experience with high HP cars I can share.

It largely depends on the type of car, specifically the aerodynamic downforce available and suspension set up. But generally I would say the biggest difference that occurs in all types of high powered cars is that you dont ever just stomp "flat" on the throttle coming out of a corner. You carefully feed in the throttle and simultaneously feel how the car is reacting to it and continually adjust and repeat until you are flat. As the lateral G's decrease after the apex, more is available for acceleration.

High powered cars can obviously go very fast. Those that generate considerable aerodynamic downforce create the interesting, and initially uncomfortable situation that you need to go faster to make the car feel good. - i.e. " It felt lose in turn 1? Thats because you were going way to slow, go faster and it will feel better!" I race a '99 Champ car with a 950 hp Cosworth XD. The car weighs just under 1,600 lbs but has huge tunnels and wings and makes 5,500 lbs of downforce at speed, or over 3 times its weight. That, plus the 1 G that occurs naturally allows this car to exceed 4G's in a fast turn. My data has actually shown 4.5 Lateral G's at the Kink at Road America. The trick about these high powered "downforce cars" is that you have to get used to knowing when you can count on the downforce, and when you cant. The Champ car makes this easy. At speed when the downforce kicks in the steering wheel gets a very heavy feel to it, it requires much more effort to turn the car. This is the car telling you it's now virtually a slot car and you can put it anywhere and it will stick. But perhaps the most amazing thing about high downforce cars at speed though is the braking. You absolutely can not lock up the brakes at 195 mph! This means your initial application of the brakes can and should be extremely violent. It seems you peel off 100 mph in about 20 feet. After that initial application, the car is now going much slower and you need to ease off into more "normal" braking where you feel and see what the tires are doing. Bottom line you can often brake later than you would with a normal, low powerd, non downforce car. For example at Road Atlanta entering 10a at the end of the back straight the Champ car is hitting about 195 mph. I carry it all the way down the hill to where it flattens out and then brake at the "1" marker. I tried to go to the "1.5" in a 914/6 at probably 135 mph and almost went into the gravel trap. Bottom line high HP, high downforce cars are big slot cars and are just amazing when the downforce is in effect. They are an absolute blast, but you are often sore when you're done and have bruises from the shoulder harnesses.

Other high powered cars have relatively little downforce. On the other end of the spectrum is a Can-Am car from the late 60's or early 70's. They had tons of power but usually only had a rear wing and no front wing or tunnels. Aerodynamics was not as well understood then as it is now. Driving these beasts is another matter entirely. I also race a '72 Mclaren M8F with a big block. That car goes just as fast, if not faster than the Champ car, but there is relatively little downforce to help you out. In the champ car I brake around the "2" for turn 1 at Road America from about 185 - 190 mph. In the Mclaren I brake where the "7" would be if there was one! Also from about 185 - 190. That's about a football field earlier. In the Champ car I feel relatively secure in it's carbon fiber cocoon. If you see the Mclaren with the bodywork off you realize there is really nothing of substance above your legs and hips except the skinny roll bar. The part that is of substance, the tub beneath hip level, is made out of basically just thick aluminum foil. You realize you REALLY do not want to crash that thing at the speeds it can go. While the Champ Car makes it's power at high rpm (13,500 shift point) it doesn't really make a lot of torque, about 370 lb/ft. The Mclaren on the other hand is a torque monster, over 800 lb/ft and you feel it! It spins the tires almost everywhere and requires very careful application of the throttle. At Road America it spins it tires cresting the hill on the front straight in 4th (top) at about 170. It spins them exiting turn 1 in 3rd at about 90. It spins them all the way up the hill from 5 to 6. You need to be really careful applying the throttle, not only when exiting turns, but also on the straights! The combination of little downforce, little safety and huge torque makes me VERY conservative in the Mclaren.

I also drive a modern LMP car a '99 Riley & Scott MKIIIB. To make a long story short it's about 2/3 Champ car and 1/3 Can-Am car. Fantastic car!

There is some in-car video of the Mclaren on youtube. I also have some from the R&S but it's not on youtube, I'll try to edit it and put it up. Unfortunately I have not had a camera yet on the Champ Car so don't have any video of that one.

Mclaren in-car video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBNh8LMShyE

 

My Z06 weighs just over 3000 # and has 630hp

Its a rush, you get on the straight and EVERYTHING just shrinks in the mirror

Its also got a lot of downforce and great brakes which I modded so it can turn at 1.5G

It sticks to the track like a leach

In the bowl at Homestead its just addictive. In the middle the car squishes down at 115mph then I add power and my exit speed is around 135 by the end of the straight I'm at 150 and that was on old tires, with fresh ones I'd probably see near 160

Its a rush but she does devour brake pads and tires and gas

 

John- Thanks for the write up, very nice read. Do you have any pics of the R&S? Would you mind sharing its history? Also, I'd love to see the video. I've always had a soft spot for Riley & Scott cars. Of course, pics and history for the Champ Car are always welcomed too!

 

Sure,
The R&S was originally campaigned by AutoExe and raced By Terada. They made a few changes, mostly low drag bodywork and called it an AutoExe instead of a R&S. It still has an AutoExe plaque. It's powered by a 6.0 Liter Ford. The car raced at LeMans in 1999 and dnf'ed due to camshaft failure. It was crashed heavily later that year at Fuji. The Tub was replaced with a brand new tub, was #19, now #21. It was raced little since. As a European LeMans car it has some unique features that differ from the cars that raced in the US under Grand Am rules. Particularly 6 speed sequential and carbon brakes. Jim downing bought it from Terada & Autoexe sold it briefly to Howard Katz and then I purchased it from Howard 2008. I ran it at Road America, Miller, Daytona & Sebring that year then began a full rebuild after Sebring which is just finishing up. Hope to have it ready by Daytona this year, it hit 204 mph there last year. It's a wonderful car to drive. The low drag bodywork, 6-speed sequential and carbon brakes are nice features that help make it a very competitive car in HSR. The car was white when I purchased it but was originally red when raced at LeMans. It will be red again when it makes it's next appearance, don't know about the zoo animals though... The white is horrible with the dust from the carbon brakes and I'm partial to red. Pics from Sebring '08, Daytona '08, LeMans '99. Champ Car at Atlanta '08.
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Dale, I drove a transam tube chassis Corvette in Canada GT Challenge Cup, a pro series that we had here in Canada a decade ago...Canada Cup was "run what you brung, hope you brung enough"...the Corvette had a Bob Riley wind tunnel developed body that was very slippery with good downforce, the primary engine was a 7 litre all aluminum Chevy with 18 degree heads, an honest 850 hp at 7,400 rpm...we used a Weismann gearbox, it was fabulous...I used to be in the business as an engineer and designed the chassis, frankly I copied a bunch of good people and only did a little innovation myself (very unique 4-link rear suspension)...car weight 2,600lbs ready to go...most of the races were at Mosport and Shannonville, two entirely different tracks...Mosport was very fast with most corners blind (cannot see the exit when entering the corner), Shannonville was basically a bike racing track, very flat, very twisty, very slow in comparison...I am a good engineer but not a great driver, our team was competing against people like Ludwig Heimrath, Klaus and Harry Bytzek (driving Porsche GT-1's, real GT-1's), etc. We consistently finished in the top ten mainly due to car reliability, not any special skill that I had...

There were a few Ferraris but the V-8's and the Porsche GT-1's were the cars to beat...what I noticed driving a really high horsepower car was the need to get tire temperatures up before using the right foot, the car was not drivable until both the front and rear tires were at operating temperature, when the temps were up the acceleration was unreal including lateral (turning corners)...we had a real advantage over the Porsches because the naturally aspirated cars could better modulate the throttle in corners to maximize speed, the Porsches had us on aerodynamics so it was an interesting tradeoff...we killed them on the short twisty tracks but Mosport was pretty even...there were no restrictors on the V-8's or the Porsches so ultimate hp was pretty close all around...it was great racing and the series ran for quite a few years...

The other reality of running a high hp car successfully is your maintenance bill is staggering...you have to replace things BEFORE they break because if they fail on the track the cost is huge...suspension bushings, rod ends, valve springs, wheel bearings, drive hubs, etc. all have a defined life and it is pretty short when you have a lot of power...we did all of our own work, I owned most of the support machinery, the crew and staff were voluntary but my parts bill alone to keep the car running was about $350,000 for 4 seasons of racing...since I was in the industry I did not pay list price for the parts either...

But, I will never forget putting the hammer down coming out of corner 5 at Mosport and thundering up the back straight, passing a Porsche GT-1 and a Moby Dick one after the other while shifting from 4th to 5th...priceless moment...

Steve
currently vintage race a Porsche 930 "Das NuuNuu"!
and have owned a Ferrari 308 for about 20 years (now supercharged, etc.)

 

For those interested, Niki Lauda's book "The Art and Science of Grand Prix Racing" has some of his driving style notes on this subject. Just remember this is from the early aerodynamic ear (considerably before ground effects or even big wing end-plates).

Alan Johnson's book "Driving in Competition" has some driving comments on the McLarens from CanAm days while Bruce and Denny were the show.

Finally, Carrol Smith mentions it once or twice in his book "Drive to Win".

 

Thanks for the description.
Not many of us will ever get to pilot a Champ car.

 

Great read. Never driven a high horsepower car, but have ridden a few high horsepower bikes. The last time I rode at Daytona (2007, on a practice before the October AMA event, not in competition), we were over 200 on the banking on a AMA legal Superbike GSXR1000. Braking for turn one was at the 3 marker, and should probably have been before that. Like the cars, you can't just gas it up off the corners, although, apparently with the new traction controls, people are doing just that, and letting the electronics take care of the wheel spin.

Art

 

Great thread!!

 

JohnB,

Great post and insight on cars I'll probably never get to drive. Can you comment on a setup issue with the champ car? When doing low level clubracing with modified streetcars and our wimpy aero (giant wing and splitter) sub 160MPH we set up cars to have mild mechanical oversteer yet mild understeer with aero at speed. With such dramatic aero effect on the champ car it seems like you are driving two cars. With a champ car do you drive in and out of aero as you race or do you pretty much cross a mile per hour threshold and the car just changes like a lightswitch so that you set-up for what you like with aero and totally ignore mechanical sub 1.5g grip? Does my post make any sense?

 

Billybob,
We actually try to get the car as neutral as possible, both with low speed mechanichal grip and high speed aero as well. This makes the car easier to drive and minimizes transition problems as the aerodynamic downforce comes into play. We run a lot of rear toe-in to keep the rear tucked in and stable. The front is toed out to help it turn in better. The car doesn't really change like a lightswitch as the downforce comes into play, it just gets progressively heavier feeling.

The first time I drove the car was at Road Atlanta. It was also my first time at Atlanta. I was working on carrying more speed down the hill into T12 and kept having about 3 feet left over at track out. I would go faster, yet there was still 3 feet left. Faster again, and still 3 feet left again. The faster I went, the better the car stuck. Ultimately I was flatout over the hill and down through T12, still with about a foot left on trackout. I must have been going about 30mph faster through there by the end but the car still felt completely glued down.

 

HAVING DRIVEN ON MANY TRACKS, I THINK DAYTONA DRIVING AN LP-560 GALLARDO IS PROBABLY THE MOST FUN I HAVE HAD AT A TRACK EVENT. COMING OFF THE HIGH BANK IN TURN ONE IS LIKE BEING SHOT OUT OF A CANNON. WE REACHED SPEEDS OF OVER 190MPH AND VALENTINO BALBONI [ LAMBOS TEST DRIVER ] HIT OVER 2OO IN A SUPER LEGGERA WITH A PASSENGER RIDING WITH HIM. I WENT THROUGH SIX SETS OF TIRES AND $1400.00 IN FUEL OVER THE THREE DAY EVENT. YES IT IS EXPENSIVE TO RUN BUT THE RUSH ONE GETS IS UNBELIEVABLE. MAKE IT THIS NOVEMBER IF YOU CAN.

 

For relatively cheap thrills, try driving a 125cc shifter kart (about 4lb/HP) on a sprint track or for that matter, on a small road course like Streets of Willow.

G

 

I used to run a 1988 March/Cosworth Indycar (1550lbs/750hp), and I would have to agree with the feeling through the wheel as to how much downforce was working.

Once I got the mindset that the faster I cornered, the better the car stuck, it became an amazing car to drive. At Laguna Seca the sensations are unforgettable, and utterly addictive!

The mindset of more speed = more stick goes contrary to common sense, since I came from fairly low downforce cars. At the speeds involved in order to get the car to work, it was a difficult mental threshold for me to cross, but once it was crossed and repeated, it was like a drug, and actually became easier to drive.

 

You need to post pictures of that beast!

 

Great posts and descriptions, thanks to all!

Best,
Tom

 

I track a Supra Turbo at 600 HP/550-ft-lbs (3300 lbs) although its capable of over 800 HP/750 ft-lbs, and even then BRAKES BRAKES BRAKES are what make fast lap times. Anyone can nail the throttle on the straights, but that only lasts for a few seconds and you still have to STOP the car at the end in time to enter the corner properly. Late braking and the associated speed carried through the corners is what separates the men from the boys.

Increasing HP beyond a comfortable, usable point will actually make you slower, especially in a low downforce street car. Better to have your car setup to use everything it has with confidence and work on smoothness. I haven't had the pleasure of driving a formula type car where downforce can change the game, but even among those, braking is where races are typically won or lost.

 

Thanks for that GREAT description of something I'll likely never do. Very well said
and well written.

Jedi

 

{Rhetorical}
Question: What is the easiest way to slow a competing driver down?
Answer: Add 100 HP to his engine.
{/Rhetorical}

I completely agree with the deleted paragraph, also. I instructed a guy at MSR Boney (Houston) with a similar car. In order to geet him up to speed, I had to teach him to drive away from the throttle. That is, when he felt the turbos kick in, feather the throttle back so that the car accelerated rather linearly through the turns*. We added about 25 MPH to his braking point into T4 simply by doing this, and getting used ot track driving.

(*) Rather than violently as 600+HP is want to do....

 

Yep, I edited my post to be more pithy, but I've observed it again and again---going for max possible veolcity on the back straight = slower lap time. You'll end up beating up your car much worse as well. A friend with a setup very similar to mine can hit 165+ mph at Road Atlanta, but his laps are better when he stops accelerating at 150+ mph and brakes at the last possible second.

I know all about that feathering as does any turbo guy. I can only imagine how terrifying it must be to drive something like a Turbo F1 or Porsche 935 at qualifying boost!!

 

Is that the porsche 962 in that pic?.

 

And then there is Mark Donohue's perspective...
Speaking to Porsche engineers about the Power of the Turbocharged 917/30. "When I can leave two black strips all the way down the straight from the turn exit to the next braking zone, THEN I will have enough horsepower!

But I agree. Having it, and using it are two different things.

Richard Petty once said something to the effect of, "Yeah it's making 600 HP, but only when my foot is all the way to the floor!"



Pantera - Indeed that is a Porsche 962 in the Pic at Daytona, it belongs to a good friend of mine. Beautiful car indeed!

 

For those that have driven the winged Indy type cars, I am interested in knowing how they behave at the limit of cornering adhesion.

My assumption is that once they start to slip, they let go all at once.
Is this correct, or can you dance on the edge of grip.

 

I think for cars with Tunnels, (Champ Cars, Formula Atlantics, GTP cars) this is true in high speed corners where the aerodynamic downforce is the predominant factor. Once the car starts to yaw excessively, the tunnels are no longer going straight and quickly lose their effectiveness. It obviously was over its limit to initiate the excessive yaw in the first place, and will go downhill very quickly from there. There would be no catching it. You get a very small window between when the tires begin to lose grip and the car's trajectory begins to change in which to make corrections. A great example of this is the Carousel at Road America in a Formula Atlantic. It's 180 degrees, flat out in 4th gear, very close to the limit. You "feel" the car, continuously making minute adjustments as required to stay ahead of the car the whole way through the turn. On the other hand In lower speed turns where mechanical grip is the predominant factor (turn 5 Road America, FA, 1st gear), you can toss them around a bit more, and can "catch it" if it gets too far.