help with dream track car

im starting to think about making a dedicated track car. concerned with fun, safety and ease of driving not absolute lap times. my priorities are street car based, paddle trans, abs, stab control, open top, possibility to drive to/from track, high rpm, no forced induction, mid engine.

idea is to take used 430 spider in rough shape and strip it out as much as possible. no interior, hvac, glass, top, windshield. add safety cage, brakes, suspension to challenge specs. make body kit for front bumper, wind deflector, roll hoop, intake snorkel, rear wing to look as much like 333sp as possible. use fiberglass to keep costs down. leave drivetrain stock

is this pure fantasy? what would a project like this entail cost and time wise? could it be driven to/from track once in while vs trailer?

thanks

 

I can't even begin to imagine the kind of nightmares that you are going to run into trying to do that.

Can it be done? Probably... At a price that isn't sky-high? not a chance...

FYI... any car with the modifications you propose is going to be illegal for use on public roads. Barring that... why would you even want to? The suspension is going to be so stiff you are going to vibrate your teeth out of the sockets before you get to the track... trust me, I've driven a racing suspension on the street... it wasn't comfortable AT ALL, and that was on the absolute softest settings.

 

I think about projects like that all the time.

First and critical assumption - money and time are not considerations. You want to be a pioneer? Pioneers suffer.

First piece of advice - give up the street driving capability.

Second piece of advice - start with a 430 Challenge car, not a street car.

 

Whatever anyone tells you its going to cost; multiply by 10. Always best to find a trackcar/racecar already built and for sale to let someone else take beating on cost to build.

Hell yeah you can drive on street as long as you keep functioning lights, horn, ... per your state laws. A caged car isn't what you'd want to take grocery shopping everyday but I've used mine as commuter months on end. Some people will swear its dangerous driving a caged car w/o a helmet so don't go wacking your head on tubing. Know 2 people (both women) who both were hit by trucks while driving caged rallycars on street who would probably be dead if they weren't driving a caged car.

 

guess driving to track is out. trailer just adds another complication for me though

want to start with spider over challenge car bc thought be easier to just change springs, shocks, rotors than cut roof off.

want to make it bc ive always loved 333sp and cant think of other way to come close. in essence, it would just be a mostly stock car with lots of body work. what would a shop charge for this type job understanding it will not be a show car ie. quickie paint job only, bare interior, fiberglass not carbon fiber etc.

someone did similar thing to 348 and foto was posted here but cant find it anymore. anyone with info on that?

 

How about onsite storage at the track? Or hiring a shop to maintain and transport the car? My in-laws motorsport shop provides these services to their customers.

What you not thinking about is all the time prepping to install a cage (removing soundproofing goop, seamsealer, wiring near welds, ....), prepping to paint the bare interior and cage, reinstalling the desired interior bits, undercoating everywhere it cooked off while welding, ...... Pay for a quickie and its going to be junk.

Get the car, get a copy of any rulebooks that may apply to any racing sanctioning body that you may participate w/ to determine saftey requirements (tubing diameters & thickness, required bars,...) and take to shop of choice for estimate. My in-laws shop would do you right if you're Om w/ work being done down here.

 

I would not be surprised if by the time you get the work done, you would be very close to just out-right buying a 333sp.

As Prorallycardriver said, this is no simple process... it requires FAR more planning and engineering than anyone that hasn't done it before realizes. You can't just strip the car and then bolt a cage in and expect it to be safe... doing it right means completely disassembling the car, then meticulously seam welding the entire car... possibly making modifications to the Firewall between you and the engine to accommodate a cage, then welding that in properly, modifying the rest of the body to account for the changes in the structural rigidity granted by the seam welding and cage... etc... etc... etc...

That's not even starting to consider what happens when a part you want to change out requires more modification, or simply just putting the car back together. You have to seriously plan out how everything is going to go back together, because once you make these changes, you may have start moving things around, like moving the battery to a different place (which you may want to change out to try to get a little extra weight savings...).

Believe me, if you do this, trailering the car is going to be a cakewalk compared to the complexity of the rest of the job...

 

Want something like a 333SP? - Radical SR3. That car will be cheaper all in than just the "donor" 430. Heck, an SR8 would be cheaper and the SR8 is amazing - sub 8:00 on the 'Ring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwtyZosuPNE

Both will be WAY faster than what you have in mind. Both cars can even be made street legal, although I think that is a bad idea.

I had the street/track car dream years ago and in reality it is a nightmare. As you do it more you will need tools, spares, extra wheels/tires (you want your weekend ruined because you hve a tire failure or it rains?). No way to carry all of this in a performance track car.

But I share your foolishness; my latest track car project, based on Elise:
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Now thats a wing!

Check out the Elise in my kid's room.
http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38460

 

the modded elise is what i was thinking of. doesnt lotus make a track version thats similar to yours?

i wouldnt be racing, just track days at intermediate level so could leave most things stock other than bodywork. would be ok with just roll bar over the existing hoops but would need something to support loss of windshield.

i love the radical but it seems a little too delicate if accident. would also like abs, stab control of street car.

 

Your original post first criteria was paddle shift or I would have mentioned Elise or Exige from the get-go. And that you wanted a cage and these are difficult to put cages in because no steel chassis. Kverges, what is your's mounted to? Uhm, the fiberglass bodied Lotus would be considered fragile too. Another disadvantage is if you stuff it, you'd have to buy entire clamshells (body panels) vs. a repairable sheetmetal bodied car and seem always a long wait to get parts. Still a great choice.

 

Spidey, I love your spirit, but unless your budget is unlimited I'd forget about the project. Enzymatic racer's post is spot on - to do it right requires a lot of technical knowledge and, frankly, very few people know the cars at that level. Even installation of a roll cage takes more thought than most shops give the task. I think you really, really have to want to have a special, one-off car.

 

I don't think it is a crazy idea at all.

I know from several drivers that prefer the open cockpit experience in a track day car, and the F430 Spider is a good start.

It won't be the fastest track car around, but with right upgrades it can be a lot of fun.

For suspension, only the control arm bushings, springs and shocks are required to change. You could run a pair of stiffer sway bars as well.

9"/11" wheels with 265/315 x 18 Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. I currently use R888 as my street tires, and they are quite fast for track use, these are the tires used in the Speed World Challenge GT and Touringa classes, as well as SpecBoxster.

You will need to upgrade the brakes, as the stock brakes (iron rotors) cannot handle the heavy weight of the F430. Brembo has different options, prices are not bad at all.

The F430 Challenge uses the same engine and transmission as the street car, this engine has been proven in Racing worldwide, it is very strong. The transmission in the Challenge uses a conventional limited slip differential, instead of the e-diff. If the bill to keep the e-diff working for track use (unknown info) is too high, you can always swap to a conventional LSD.

Then just add the fire bottle, race seats and harnesses. There is a factory rollbar for the Coupe that works with the Spider, but a custom rollbar would be better. A cage is preferred, but forget about street driving and a caged car, it is plain dangerous. Custom leather matching the interior color around the rollbar pads should make it look good.

Then slowly work on weight reduction, you can save in excess of 600 lbs from a F430 Spider.

 

I don't know how others do cages in aluminum cars but my Elise track car uses plates that are articulated bonded and riveted to the chassis upon which the cage is then welded. Since adhesives won't tolerate high temps we riveted the plates and built the cage. Then the cage was removed and painted prior to permanent installation. I researched adhesives extensively and found a 10:1 methacrylate adhesive that has both high fatigue resistance and over 3000 psi shear and tensile strength. The plate to chassis surface area and shape are theoretically capable of over 60,000 lbs force before the adhesive fails. The test bond we made was so strong he material failed before the adhesive.

I chose this method because the Elise chassis is itself bonded. The 430 I think is welded at least in part and I wonder if the whole damn thing is then heat treated. The Elise extrusions are heat treated and welding to them will destroy the heat treat.

Anyone know how the 430 challenge and Risi cars are caged?

Tricky stuff i think

as for stability management and paddle shifting I don't get that personally. I have given in and will use ABS but I want to master the drive and if you don't shift and have car control what is the challenge?

As for 'glass panels I don't know that they are any more difficult or expensive to repair or replace than 430 panels. I just have to think a 430 track car has to be brutally expensive to operate. I had a GT3 Cup car and it was magnificent but all in with amorized engine and other costs was way over $1000 per track hour to run. I bet a 430 is 2x that.

 

Amen to that. Take the arrows!

 

Forget about leather, add foam pads.

Plenty of friends of mine drive their stripped, caged cars as a daily driver. One of them had a serious accident a couple of weeks ago (wheel fell of after it was stolen recovered a day before, car slammed into the guardrail on the motorway at considerable speed and got hit by a truck afterwards) and survived with, and I quote, ''messed up hair''. His pasenger hurt her ankle (it was her car).

Just add some foam padding and you'll be fine, you can go with leather around that if you want it to look pretty.

 

what does anyone think about the body work to resemble 333sp? remove windshield, add snorkle, wind blocker, roll bar and wing all in fiberglass. how does that get done? thanks

 

Rice does not mix well w/ pasta.

 

A Belgian Ferrari specialist (Scuderia Maranello) made a track car similar to what you want several years ago. They made a small series of cars, based on a tube frame and a Ferrari 355 V8 engine/transaxle. They named the car the "MR400". I just checked their website and they still have 2 for sale. I have some pics from a very rainy day at Spa Francorchamps last year.
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thats pretty cool. the one based on 348 was similar but more like 333sp

 

can anyone read their french language web site scuderiamaranello.com ? is it a 355 chassis or custom one? how much $?

 

How about a Ultima CanAm with a Ferrari drivetrain? I'm sure they could come up with something relatively economical

http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/Content.aspx?f=canamintro
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i love the ultima even with chevy v8 but like the radical i dont trust its crash worthiness vs a street car. also looking for abs, paddles, esp/tc.

i still think a rebody of 430 spider is best choice if i can find someone to do body work

 

Your best bet would be to use one of the many companies that make concept cars for the major car manufacturers. You can work with a 3D designer to create the look you want in data. Having the data will let you see the final design before anything is built. Then molds can be machined and parts made. These companies rebody current cars all the time. They could work with a race prep shop to include the level of safety you wanted, ie: roll cage, fire suppression etc.
This could get expensive but it would be what you want.

Oh, and yes, I am the designer who can make the data for you and have your car built.

 

did these started out with a renault spider tubs? i recognize the headlamps and sidepods from the renault spiders.

any pics of the chassis?