Rubens kicked out at Brawn?

Very good point.

 

Please feel free to re-check your history books re Suzuka 1990!.

Senna was upset because he felt that the pole position spot was on the wrong side of the grid at Suzuka (which in reality it was) and he asked for it to be swapped to the other side of the startline but this was refused. He then made his mind up that if Prost got ahead of him going into turn one then he was going to just crash into him to prove his point. At the time he wouldn't/couldn't accept that he'd done anything wrong. two years later he admitted he deliberately drove into the back of prost instead of backing off. In this race it was Senna acting like a spoilt child, throwing his toys out the pram.

It had nothing to do with Prost's "inability to realize he was not as good as Senna". I say again, Senna admitted two years later that he deliberately drove into the back of prost instead of backing off . How can you argue that was Prosts fault when Senna acknowledged responsibility himself (eventually)?.

It doesn't matter how You try to change history to suit yourself, wether you like it or not, Senna was the founder of the "win at all costs" mentality

 

While this is not a thread to debate Senna's driving history, I do remember a little more to the story than him "admitting" to driving into the back of Prost. Prost also had a little history with Prost's countryman then president of the FIA from that race and the one the year previous at Japan. As I recall, he admitted to holding his line and had put everyone on notice what he planned before the race. I don't ever recall his saying he was wrong, or even taking responsibility for the accident. I'm pretty sure he blamed (wrongly or otherwise) the FIA president for not allowing pole position to be moved as race officials had agreed.

There have been many "win at all costs" characters in racing, Senna is not the first in my opinion. Though he was good at it .

 

You are 100 percent incorrect sir. With all due respect to you're memory, it's a well known FACT that Senna admitted he crashed Prost out of the race at Suzuka 1990. He lied to the stewards and collected his WDC, which likely would have been won by the Scuderia, then months later admitted his cowardly act.

 

Did you even read Phil's post regarding team orders ? Little Rubens did indeed throw a tantrum by waiting till the last second to yield to Michael, this was indeed childish, and caused much harm to his standing at the Scuderia.

Then you finish your post with the "Senna is god" paragraph, Prost was every bit the racer Senna was, how do you explain Prost scoring more points than Senna in 1988 ? If we used todays scoring system back then, Prost would have been Champion not Senna.

So you worship Senna the rat, that's your problem...

 

Please feel free to google it (or use whichever search engine you prefer).

I found this quite easily: http://atlasf1.autosport.com/2000/jpn/preview/jones.html and this :http://www.motorsport.com/magazine/feature.asp?C=Mirrors&D=2004-04-25

Like many geniuses, he was flawed, just as Schuey was, wether we like it or not and no matter how much we want to, we can't change history.

 

Nineteen years on and it still raises passions.

 

See also Panis, Fisi, JVilleneuve......

 

Villeneuve was world champ, wasn't he? Doesn't belong with Panis and Fisi.

 

Hi Phil,

I am certainly no Senna apologist, just so you know where I am coming from. We might actually saying the same thing. My only point is that I have never seen Senna in his own words take "responsibility" for the accident. I have only heard/seen quotes attributable to Senna where he views his actions as honorable.

I agree with you that Senna caused the accident with Prost. But here are Senna's actual words, where he says he contributed but was not responsible for the incident and that others actions created a situation where he had no choice:

"I think what happened in 1989 was unforgivable, and I will never forget it. I still struggle to cope with it even now. You know what took place here: Prost and I crashed at the chicane, when he turned into me. Afterwards, I rejoined the race, and I won it, but they decided against me, and that was not justice. What happened afterwards was... a theatre, but I could not say what I thought. If you do that, you get penalties, you get fined, you lose your license maybe. Is that a fair way of working? It is not...At Suzuka last year I asked the officials to change pole position from the right side of the track to the left. It was unfair, as it was, because the right side is always dirty, and there is less grip — you sweat to get pole position, and then you are penalized for it. And they said, "Yes, no problem". Then, what happened? Balestre gave an order that it wasn't to be changed. I know how the system works, and I thought this was really s***. So I said to myself, "OK, whatever happens, I'm going to get into the first corner first — I'm not prepared to let the guy (Alain Prost) turn into that corner before me. If I'm near enough to him, he can't turn in front of me — he just has to let me through." I didn't care if we crashed; I went for it. And he took a chance, turned in, and we crashed. It was building up, it was inevitable. It had to happen." So you did cause it then, someone said. "Why did I cause it?" Senna responded. "If you get f***** every time you try to do your job cleanly, within the system, what do you do? Stand back, and say thank you? No way. You should fight for what you think is right. If pole had been on the left, I'd have made it to the first corner in the lead, no problem. That was a bad decision to keep pole on the right, and it was influenced by Balestre. And the result was what happened in the first corner. I contributed to it, but it was not my responsibility".[37]

That last line tells more of his mindset than reports that he admitted to causing the accident. In fact he blames specifically blames others for the collision.

My main point wasn't to dispute whether Senna was a "win at all costs" driver. There is not question that his move against Prost was premeditated; he announced it to Prost and the powers that be before the race when he didn't get pole position moved to the other side of the track. But I have never seen a quote from Senna where he says something like, "yeah, I was wrong and endangered lives" or some such.

The quote above sure doesn't sound like a contrite admission of responsibility to me.

I would be happy to read a quote where Senna says otherwise, I am always open to learning something.

 

Referring to the text I have highlighted in blue. There is absolutely NOTHING at all wrong with what Prost did. Infact the person in front is allowed to hold his line all the flipping time. It is up to the overtaker to find a way past. This is what Senna fans can never understand.

The only way the person leading can be at fault is if they do NOT hold their line. Prost did nothing wrong, Senna took a WDC away from Prost and Ferrari the next year because he didn't like the fact that he was wrong the year before.

Yes Senna was faster than Prost, but he was not as good as Prost, and if history was corrected it would be Senna with 2 WDC and Prost with 6. Now of course Senna was not allowed the luxury of retiring ... which is a terrible shame .
Pete

 

Since Senna is apparently so smart that he knew which side of the track was better ... why didn't he just qualify second?

The problem is he did not get to the corner first ... Prost did, but heck accidents happen, its racing ... but asking for a pole position to be moved is pathetic. For 365 days since the last race everybody knew which side of the track it was ... get over it mate.
Pete

 

More than any other driver, Senna elevated F1 to the stature it has today. The damage was created by the despicable Italian courts that charged Frank Williams with manslaughter.

That may be true, but Senna was exciting, passionate and unpredictable. Granted not without very serious character flaws. But Prost was as exciting as watching paint dry. Not once did I ever tune in to watch Alain Prost drive a Formula 1 car.

Has a thread ever been so thoroughly hijacked?

 

Hi Pete,

I was afraid my post(s) might be considered defending Senna's action at that race.

My only point was I don't think Senna ever thought he did anything wrong. I was only questioning those who say he admitted he caused the accident or was to blame. I still have never seen anything Senna said, taken in context, that takes on any significant blame for the incident.

I agree that everyone knew what side pole position would be on, and would go further to say that the time to debate where pole position should be is before qualifying ever starts. Not whining about it after the fact.

No worries!

Yes, end of hijack.
W

 

Yes and that is why Senna became one of the most dangerous drivers, because he honestly thought he was above the rules and never wrong.

One of the most captivating drivers to watch, but he lost perspective ...

Best, and definitely no worries
Pete

 

4rePhill,

Yes I do remember that event and that Senna felt the pole position should have been changed. I am not saying Senna didn't have flaws. I am saying that F1 then and still now is political. Balestre favored Prost when it came to issues that involved both drivers. Where is the pole position now in Suzuka?

I will also ask others to remember that Silverstone race that poured with rain and Prost was driving terribly and finally just pulled into the pits and stopped driving or in 1993 where Prost again was terrible in the rain and Senna in an inferior car beat him. Prost gave up. If it rained Prost would complain and want the race stopped. Prost was fortunate to be in cars that were good enough to win and finish races. That is why he won 4 WDC not necessarily because he was a superior racing driver. Prost did not fair well against drivers that challenged him and he was not good at getting past others when they were ahead and fighting for points. Mansell was as much a driver that drove with the idea win at any costs. And there are others before Senna and Mansell. So to say it was Senna that created this win at any cost is incorrect.

In more recent times Schumaker was by far better skilled than the others. If Schumaker raced when Senna and Prost and Mansell and the others raced would Schumaker be a 7 time WDC winner?

But back to the original thread. I do remember Rubens complaining about having to give up the win. And yes one could say that that is the reason team orders have been banned, but ask yourself if teams just haven't found other ways to have the team leader end up leading the race and the other driver ending up second. You could just make a little mistake in the pit stops and suddenly there is a change in positions and who is going to say you did it on purpose. Do I think team orders still come up? Yes but it is less acknowledged now then before.

So I will ask this, what do you all think of team orders? Is it right or wrong to have them?

Cheers,

 

Yes, definitely.

Senna and Prost would take each other out, or kill or injure one or both of themselves, and Mansell couldn't hold any of the other three driver's jockstraps, elevating Michael to top rung.

Hell, Prost left McLaren because he felt things were getting unholy there, and feared a Gilles-Pironi result after Senna broke their gentlemen's agreement about who would lead the '89 San Marino GP after the first turn. Sad that a similar result came to Senna anyway.

Side note: it's spelled SchumACHER....

 

Just to add... Alonso learned his ways from watching Schumacher....

Senna=====> Schumacher=====> Alonso

Food for thought....

 

crash.net has a blurb that the reason Button has not signed is over money. He lucked out even having a drive for the season in Brawn, now is demanding Kimi/Alonso/Hamilton money.

I hope Ross Brawn tires of his arrogance and sends him packing. Rubens has performed better during the second half of the season after other teams caught up to Brawn's huge advantage at the start. Brawn dominance in 2010 is far from a sure thing.

 

Part of Button's deal was deferred salary and bonuses from 2009. He's asking for this back pay and a moderate raise worthy of a World Champion.

From what I understand, he's not asking for Kimi, Alonso, or even Hamilton money. Rather he's asking for the Honda money that he was getting before...

He cut his salary from 8million pounds to 3 million pounds, now Brawn is balking. Comparatively, Hamilton makes more than 12 million pounds.


Link:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/oct/19/jenson-button-formula-one-future-brawn

 

Well thats seems more like it ...

Trying to read Crashnet is pointless spend more time shutting pop ups down it's rubbish.

 

Maybe I should know this already but how many top rate drivers are still paid directly by their teams and how many by the sponsors.
Brawn's timing was great this year in terms of rule changes but it may have been unfortunate when it comes to sponsor money.
I read a piece yesterday about how much money their TV exposure was worth this season (200+ Mil). Too bad they couldn't cash in on it.

 

No way, don't agree.

Pete

 

+1

 

I think you're right to a degree, but so far I can't remember seeing Alonso have a moment of madness to the same level as Senna '90 or Schumacher '97 (or when he pushed his own brother right up against the wall in one race).

I will concede that schuey took the "win at all costs" mentality alot further than Senna but the point I was trying to make was that he got it from watching Senna.

As for Alonso, I just don't see him as being as extreme as the other two, but he does have a determination to push and to win which I can appreciate (and of course, now he's going to be at Ferrari, I'll have to put up with those silly celebrations after a race win!).

If Schuey raced at the same time as Senna and Prost would he have won 7 WDC's?. Who knows!. If Gilles Villenueve hadn't have died in '82 would Senna and Prost have won so many titles each?. We'll never know.

One thing I do know though, Senna, Prost and schumacher to a degree could have learn't alot from Villenueve. A harder, faster, fairer racing driver has never existed. As I've always sumed him up:

Gilles Villeneuve: Too young to die! Too fast to live!