458 Italia no more Manual

First I'll admit that I haven't read all ten pages of threads. However, if I may chime in here, until last week, I was a dyed in the wool manual guy. I thought the F1 systems in Ferraris were overly complicated and awkward to use. I also loved the driver involvement of the gated shifter. Ok, now I can safely say that I am tossing all that out the window.

I drove a 2010 Volkswagen CC with DSG last week. It was like nothing I have ever experienced, the shifts were so fast the tach looked like it was on a switch. The shifts were imperceptible and the car didn't have any of that awkwardness off the line that plagues Ferrari's older F1 attempts. It completely blew my mind and reminded me of my days riding motorcycles and clicking of three quick downshifts with a flick of my foot. I was so taken by it, that jumping back to a manual suddenly made me feel like the last driver of a steam car.

In the course of performance car design, there are some breakthroughs that are so monumental that after a period of time, it is almost impossible to remember performance cars without them. IE, Independent suspensions, Radial tires, disc brakes, synchos, and now DSG. I sincerely think that in ten years (if gas performance cars are still around ), DSG will be wholly accepted as the transmission of choice for performance cars, and manuals will be for econoboxes.

I know I know, I drank the Kool Aid...but before anyone slams the 458 and the Cali for adopting these new systems, they really need to try them out, there is simply no comparison between Ferraris F1 systems of the past and a dual Clutch system

Just my .02

 

Ya I like it analog style I guess, needles moving around a circle.

ABS I still maintain I don't need it in the summer, but I would like to have it as an insurance policy if you will, so yes I usually prefer cars that have them, or at least the ones that wait for me to reach the braking adhesion limit then kick in should I mess up. And correct me if I am wrong but doesnt ABS increase the braking distance? Last I checked on snow or gravel, ABS took a longer distance.

Traction control wise, I havent driven a lot of mid engined machines so I can't truthfully give a proper comment on this, but for any of the FR layout cars I drove sliding it was fairly easy to hold, so basically throttle induced oversteer is usually my favourite medicine to understeer. <-- Traction control won't allow that. So last time a traction control system messed that up for me I got severely pissed.

I know time and technology does change but some things should be left there just because its awesome to experience. These F1 boxes and these DSG style boxes by far are superior boxes, but like I said they are detached machines with brutal efficiency. But none I drove gave me any satisfaction. I marvel at the technology, the brilliance of it. And frankly if Ferrari didnt use it I would think they are retarded, but I cant warrant the exclusion of the 6 speed, its just too good to give up as far as feel goes.

Then again I'm not really surprised if I'm honest, how much did the F1 F430 outsell the 6 speed F430? 5:1? What was the number again? I mean thats just climbing as the F1 and DSG tech gets moved forward.

Like I said the flagships and hardcores I understand, but the dread and butter model should have the option.

Oh well they decided what they did, its highly likely the murci replacement is probably e-gear only, same for the gallardo replacement. Mclaren has let go of that box completely too.

Only option left now is the zonda. only I have the money for none of these cars.

 

Krish- No, ABS significantly decreases stopping distances on dry surfaces because it can maintain that point just below lock-up by cycling the brakes at rates unachievable by humans. Look in some old issues of R&T, MT, or C&D and compare stopping distances on the pre-ABS Vipers vs the ABS Vipers. The stopping distance decreased significantly when ABS was introduced in 2001.

There are some surfaces, such as deep sand and gravel, where ABS is not very efficient, but on snowy highways, ABS typically offers an advantage.

Keep saving your money and you will soon have a Ferrari. You can also do what I did to buy my first one. Buy a car that will not depreciate much. Pay for it and trade for something better without much depreciation. Repeat until a Ferrari is affordable. Worked for me. Vette-911S-Dino 246 GT-Daytona. Vette-Porsche-308/328/348/355/360 should work now. Make sure you have a garage by the time you get to the Ferrari. If you want a Ferrari earlier, consider a Dino 308 GT4 or Mondial.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Hello All,

Well, I have to say that first off the F50 is a manual shifter not a F1 like in the Enzo. As this has been said by many in the past on this topic it is purely personal preference and I understand that. I do feel that Ferrari should offer the manual shift in the 458. The problem of course with this idea is it seems the development principals of 458 have been that the driver never has to remove his or her hands off the steering wheel as suspension, sport settings, lights etc are all functions on the steering wheel. Michael made it apparent at Frankfurt that the design team wanted to bring Formula 1 to the street. If this is their intention then having a manual shifter goes against their design / development plan.

As many have said and I share their love for manual shifting a Ferrari because it is like no other manual and it makes my drives even more special. I just purely love it. My other real issue with F1 transmissions of the past have been the reliability of the transmission, the longevity and the durability. It seems that Ferrari knew that the F1 was going to be higher in maintenance cost. I have seen so many threads discussing the F1 in the 360 and the 430. It does seem the F1 in the F430 is stronger. But I am not a fan of this idea that an owner is going to spend additional money to rebuild / replace clutches or other transmission related items sooner just because the F1 isn't durable enough to last and function the way it is supposed to.

Porsche has brought out the PDK as we all know and we also know that Porsche has designed it to be strong enough and reliable enough to live up to Porsche's longevity principals.

So in addition to the fact I like driving a manual Ferrari more than a F1 I am not a fan of having better technology just for the sake of it over durability. It is a different matter if one is a challenge series driver then I expect to rebuild items on a race car before every race, but it is not acceptable on a road car with regular use you can see issues arise because of wear on the F1 trans and it's associated parts. That to me is not acceptable.

So I will ask the question of those that feel the F1 is superior and the way to go. What do you feel is reasonable durability lifespan for a F1 trans and associated parts? Do you feel it is an acceptable expense of ownership to replace or rebuild parts in lower mileage?

Cheers,

 

Allegedly the new dual clutch system in the California is a sealed transmission and the clutch is designed to last the life of the car...so that's pretty good

 

The life of the car, or the life of the Warranty?
If the trans is designed to last the life of the car, I think it would be spelled out as an unlimited warranty on the transmission.

 

Why would anyone do that? It makes no sense. Your engine is designed to last quite a bit longer than the warranty too! The point is that the new transmission, including the clutch is expected to have the same durability as the engine. The dual clutch is no longer a wear item...and without an F1 pump to deal with, the the system is supposedly light years ahead of prior efforts in terms of durability...of course like anything, only time will tell.

 

James- You miss one major point. The transmissions and clutches on the manual shifter and F1 shifter 355/360/575M/SA/612/430/599 are identical. Only the shifter mechanisms and throwout bearings are different. Plus the F1 shifter cars have a clutch position sensor.

The main cause of differences in wear on the F1 shifter clutches is driver technique. Some drivers get very short clutch life because of the way they use the F1 shifter, and some get very long life on their clutches because they know how to drive the cars without stressing the clutch. Amazingly, that is the same thing you see on drivers of all cars, not just Ferraris, with three pedals. Some folks are rough on things, and others are not. Hopefully all of you know where you are on the roughness scale.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Taz,
I've heard that as well but I've also been told by service personnel that they generally see shorter clutch life with paddle cars. They point to slippage in low speed maneuvers, especially in reverse, as the likely culprit. Theoretically, you should get longer life with paddles due to precise rev matching. As for the dual clutch setup, I don't see how the clutch lasts forever since ther must be some slippage starting out from stops or is there something about the engineering I don't understand?

Re: ABS. I have a race car without it and it certainly means you have something else to think about and a skill set to develop. It can be fun but mistakes can be costly. A track is a controlled situation, you know when and where you will be braking and know what to do to prevent lockups. On the road, things are different. When an emergency occurs where you need all the braking power you can get, the natural instinct is to jam the pedal. I prefer to have ABS. It eliminates onething to think about and control when I'm trying to avoid an accident. You can't steer with locked up wheels.

Dave

 

Apparently, it has something to do with it being a "wet clutch" design. The dual clutch system is very different in operation and design than the F1 system, which is basically an automated manual gearbox. It is also designed to protect the clutch from overheating. I have driven a DSG system recently, and there was no perceived clutch slip off the line and the gear changes happened instantaneously. So fast, in fact, that the tach couldn't keep up! There was absolutely no lurching or head bobble either. As I said in another thread, I am a dyed in the wool manual guy, but these new dual clutch systems are otherworldly. They are so good, its like riding a sports bike and snapping off instant downshifts. Really amazing.

 

forget it their goes my order out the window.

 

So that's a couple of months earlier that mine's going to arrive!

 

I'm of to buy a GT2

 

After watching the EVO video, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that Ferrari made the right decision. Before I get stoned, here is why:

Many of us like manual cars because of the involvement. In fact, I can tell you that I enjoy driving older gearboxes (like the one in a 512TR) that is not quite as slick, but requires a bit more care, a bit more thought. You just feel more in touch. And no power steering. You can just imagine what it was like to be a 60s racer, working the gears, every facet of your body from your eyes to the tips of your toes completely enveloped in the moment.

But modern race cars are not like that. Even when there is a stick, virtually all race cars today (purpose built, not SCCA and the like) have dog-ring boxes that only require the clutch to get it rolling.

Watch Harris drive the car during the last half of that EVO video and tell me what car you have ever seen that is more like a modern F1 car on the road. It's not just having all the controls on the wheel, it's the sounds, the view, and possibly more important the steering ratio that let you drive the car as close to the real thing as anything else out there. Probably as close as most of us really want to get.

It's clear the 458 - more than any car Ferrari has made - is completely designed around the synergy of the of all the systems; suspension, motor, transmission, even the cockpit. I think a manual would miss the point.

 

Exactly. A 4, 5, or 6 speed were state of the art for their time. A 7 speed dual clutch is the state of the art for OUR time. It makes sense to design the car around the best -- as you would expect in any real racer (provided the rules allowed it).

 

bdelp and J. Salmon,

You guys are right. I was truly impressed with all the videos from the different car mags. The 458 with the new F1 trans looks, sounds and from what they say feels great. It does seem that for the first time everything is really integrated and the F1 is the natural choice for the 458. For the first time I am really looking forward to driving a new Ferrari with the F1.

I guess when I want to remember the way a manual Ferrari felt like I will have to buy an older Ferrari and enjoy it for it's glory when it was state of the art.

Cheers,

 

for the sake of clarity...they're not calling it F1 anymore, right?

 

Nothing wrong in that at all.

 

What if I don't want an F1 car?

I look at it this way:

There are a bunch of sports cars out there that are faster than the V8 ferraris, probably handle better, and do a bunch of stuff better. The ferrari however is worth the money because of the experience. To me, the experience is the engine noise, the smell of the leather, the click of the gated shifter and the dance of the steering wheel. I want all the techno nonsense in my daily driver luxobarge, but when I want to drive, I want to DRIVE, not be driven by some computer controlled vehicle.


I like the following analogy:

The automated manuals are like a golf club that is computer controlled to deliver a perfect strike every time. You still have to swing it, but no matter how you swing it, the ball will go dead straight every single time. Sure thats cool, but you completely lose the joy that comes from finally hitting that perfect shot. The shot that you know is long and straight immediately just from the sound and the feel. That to me is the difference. One is technically better at completing a task, but that doesn't make it more enjoyable.

 

then forget about this car...there are plenty of other good cars out there with a traditional manual...

 

+1 but not faster than this car.

 

the balboni lp550 could be. I'm just saying.

The CGT is manual, and I am certain it is faster.

As is any of those outrageous zondas.

Lastly there is still the Mclaren F1?

Yes the last three are significantly more expensive, but I am just saying, but I am serious about that balboni. That bull is definitely something not to be ignored.

Completely eliminating it I still think is dumb. Hell for the few that really want one, make it an extra cost option even. Those that don't want flappies and a car with stick I am sure are willing to pay a bit more. I know I am.

 

Ah yes so I was partially right, I was told only about gravel, and assumed it meant all surface situations. My mistake. How about this for a suggestion? abs system that you can turn off. When you reach open lapping sessions at the track, you turn it off to develop braking techniques if you will, and turn it back on when going back on the road? I think its a good idea. I mean it's such a sweet sensation when you do something absolutely right, and you needed no computer assist for it. I like to experience that. It is a lovely sensation.

My thoughts are maintain my current car. Unfortunately being my first car I got hopelessly emotionally attached to it, and now I can't let it go. So long for any return from this car. I am thinking a vetski in a couple of years, don't know which porsche I want, I hate their vw beetle looks, but I definitely respect their quality, heritage, and performance. I am not sure which one to get maybe a basic carrera. And eventually a 348. <-- That is the car that I want to climb to internationally respected tuner level along with the r34 skyline gt-r as the co flagship.

 

I understand your preference for a stick shift, but there's no way a Balboni is quicker anywhere than a 458. And I say that as a Lambo owner (and fan).

 

quite frankly, the ZR1 is probably faster