What do you mean about Rubens being very open about team orders at Brawn? He said that if he felt there were team orders at play, he would quit or wouldn't play along. Ergo, proof that there were no team orders at Brawn this year. You disagree? As for team orders at McLaren, it amazes me that some people will go to such lengths to discredit Hamilton. This kid is the real deal! He beat Alonso - that's just what happened, and the facts support it. Yet people will say Hamilton was the #1, and Alonso was #2, despite Alonso himself - probably the BIGGEST whiner on the grid - never even made this claim, and he was the man who would know better than anyone else.
Since the rookie Hamilton beat the 2xWDC Alonso in the standings I would attribute you opinion the tint of your glasses, since every thing factual points to the contrary. Regards
Blah blah blah, Mike. Still only YOUR opinion. Since you or I weren't with the team i'll have my opinion and you can go ahead and have yours. Still, that's not the point. The point is McLaren stinks at providing "equal number one status" Always has and always will. They always favor one guy or the other and it shows. If Button comes to the team one of the drivers will be number two. Whether the team admits it publicly or not.
That's just it - it's NOT my opinion. Opinions are a person's take on a subject where there is no right or wrong. Saying Alonso was the #2 isn't an opinion, it's just wrong. It's not an opinion because there are facts that anyone can go and look up. The funniest thing is that you guys are making a claim, that supports Alonso, that even Alonso himself didn't make. Why are you being so stubborn about this? You say neither of us were with the team - what does that have to do with it? Are you suggesting your gut feel outweighs the on-the-record statements that Alonso made? So he was #2, even though he himself hasn't even said that? Talk about reaching. Just man up and accept that Hamilton beat Alonso in equal machinery.
There's where you're wrong. I didn't say that Alonso was number 2 to Hamilton in 07, I just said McLaren sucked at giving two drivers equal number one status and that problems always seem to arise. 07 was simply an example of that. As was 89, 08, 09 etc. 07 is a different thing altogether that I'm tired of debating. You feel your way and i'll feel mine, i'll never agree with you.
Ummm, no, actually in response to me saying it wasn't Hamiltons team, you said... and.. Those two statements pretty clearly say that you claim Hamilton was the #1 driver. You're just backing away from what you said because the facts show it's not true. As for "McLaren sucking at having two equal drivers" - again, not the case in 07 - and factually so. I think the fault lies with the ego of the drivers. Is there ANY other driver in F1 these days who requires his teammate be the stated #2? Alonso is the only one in F1 who does that, isn't he? The guy is a cry baby through and through - it's widely known. His problem at McLaren had nothing to do with McLaren being unable to provide equal support and everything to do with Alonso not very much liking being equal to his teammate. As was reported in quoted interviews with Alonso, he himself stated that he wanted to be the #1 driver and felt he had earned that right, and his beef was that he wasn't getting that status but instead the rookie Hamilton was being given equal footing, which he thought was wrong. That's right from the horses mouth - he was quoted in countless sources saying those words. Also don't forget that Alonso offered his mechanics, IIRC, 1000GBP each for every race where he finished ahead of Hamilton. Alonso was very much trying to twist the team to his own ends... he even threatened to go to the FIA over spygate if Ron Dennis didn't make him the designated #1 driver... and Alonso was told what he had been told all along - that they get equal cars, parts and strategy, and it's up to them to get the job done from there. And that's when Alonso tossed his toys out of the crib. It's obvious you can't admit when you're wrong and you will cling to your belief (despite having softened it with every post). But I think everyone who is reading knows the score - Alonso and Hamilton were given exactly equal equipment in 2007, equal opportunity, equal strategy, equal everything that matters. And with that, Alonso was beaten by rookie Hamilton - that's just the fact of what happened.
You still don't get it do you? As far as Alonso and Hamilton go, I really don't care what you think about the whole thing. That's not the point of the debate. You have every right to think how you want to about the whole thing just like I have to right to think that your opinion is yours only and not totally complete. You still haven't proven a damned thing as far as I'm concerned. You know as far as everyone else knows that you cannot give two drivers equal number 1 treatment. One of them will always be compromised. They may have had equal equipment, and they may have even gotten alternating optimum fuel strategy (until Hamilton disregarded team orders, I might add) but clearly FA wasn't comfortable in the team and he said as much many times. Again, you don't know how he felt or what he was promised because you didn't work for the team and you are not psychic as far as I know (if you are, please tell me the numbers for the mega millions, I promise i'll share..). The point is McLaren always spouted the whole equal number one crap, but never delivered that claim. A point which you curiously never seem to address. Many of thier former drivers seem to be of that opinion. In that case, they know better than you or I. Oh BTW 07 was a tie. I really wish FA had stayed for 08 because he would have beaten Lewis easily and likely would have been WDC.
Hehehe beaten him easily, yeh right he tried he failed he didn't hang around to try again. Because Ron Dennis refused to order Lewis to crash in some wall...
You missed ye ole worn out argument. Some folk cannot accept Lewis Hamilton is a natural talent and does not need team favours or FIA help to win a WDC. Alonso fans can now rest assured that now being in a Ferrari he can show us his skills.
The only area Alonso was outmatched by Hamilton in '07 was qualifying, and only slightly at that. In fact, the numbers couldn't have been more equal. Alonso's avg. Q was 3.2 with 2 poles Hamilton's was 2.9 with 6 poles Alonso 12 podiums (4-4-4) Hamilton 11 podiums (4-4-3) Alonso's avg. finish was 2.9 Hamilton's avg. finish 3 (both based on 16 finishes, each had one retirement) Other than their one retirement, Alonso's worst finish was 7th, Hamilton's 9 And of course, both drivers finished with 109 points. I think the interpretation can be made that Alonso should have out-performed Hamilton based on experience, and by racing so closely he was seen as getting beaten by the rookie.
Mike I feel your pain! Know matter how many facts you throw out there its impossible to make the blind see! True believers are just that! OBTW Hami beat Alonso in the same equipment fair and square! Deal with it how you want!
You were impressed by him in 08? He didn't look very consistent, no where near as in 07. Luckily for him Massa wasn't either and Kimi was out to lunch. I know you have a man-crush on him and all but really, Steve?
+1 The funny thing is I didn't even care to have the whole 07 argument all over again. Mike can feel how he wants to about it and I can too. Nothing he can say will ever change that. The point I was trying to make is that McLaren has never had much success keeping both their drivers happy with this equal number one policy they say they have. The same will happen if Jenson comes aboard.
Luis, Not a man crush at all, because I post my point of view and it happens to be different than yours does not mean that, if it does the same can be said of you and Alonso. I actually think Alonso was great competition for Lewis and he performed better with it. So as to 08 yes not as good however he won a WDC and thats that. You see that's the point you said it we are not far away from agreeing, Mclaren at least try to have a equal policy and lets face it, no team can openly admit they have a #1 driver as it is against the rules. What is annoying is to folk trying to explain the success of LH as to team orders along with various other things. Alonso was the one that wanted #1 status at Mclaren and because he wasn't given it ,the problems started, hence Flav the next year putting him with a doughnut that would even stoop as low as to driving into a wall for him.
GUYS! I may be making a big assumption here, but I'm sure you're all intelligent enough to realise that the only way this argument could ever be sorted is if all the drivers were in the exact same care with no differences whatsoever and raced it out on a track! (and we all know that's not going to happen!). The 2007 season has been and gone and while Hamilton and Alonso were busy throwing teddies at each other, Kimi snuck in and stole the sweets!. You can spout all the statistics you like comparing Hamilton with Alonso but I will guarantee you 100% that, despite being in the same team with the same version of car, at no point ever were the cars 100% identical so it's a pointless argument. Now if we can all calm down and admit that Casey Putch would have p****d on all of them, we can have a bit of peace. And don't try arguing with Me 'cause My dads bigger than your dad so there!. Hey!, what the hell!, this isn't My steel helmet!.
That's the more irritating thing about the entire situation. McLaren always said that they didn't have team orders when they clearly did favor one or the other, even before team orders were "banned". Senna in 89 was clearly favored, I remember a picture of both cars in the pits in Japan. There were about 10 mechanics hovering around Senna's car and Prost had about 4. I also remember DC in an interview saying something along the lines or Ron Dennis comes into the pits and gets the de-brief. He's told what Mika's strategy is and agrees, then asked, what are they gonna do? Referring to DC. Yeah, really equal treatment there. On the other thing, nobody knows what RD promised Alonso when he signed him. If he told Alonso he'd be number 1 and didn't deliver on that, then Alonso has the right to be pissed. His problem seeed to be just with RD. Something obviously was either misunderstood or misrepresented. It's funny how certain people that used to despise RD, and not believe a word he said but since that year they think he's the most honest person on earth.
Well yes I have no doubt, but the MS and Rubens situation that Todt and co brought about made that pale into insignificance. So much so it had to be addressed.
Sir Jackie Stewart on whether Jenson Button should join Lewis Hamilton at McLaren: "Jackie Stewart wouldn't have gone to the Lotus team when Jim Clark was there."
Luis, without stating the obvious it is against the rules so why would they publicly announce it, and even before that when it wasn't, it was not really something to publicly brag about.
No kidding, the problem that I have with that is they clearly never practiced what the they preached. Why say you have equal drivers when it's easy to tell you don't? Instead of that they should just say nothing. It's the equivalent of me pissing in your face and telling you it's raining.
