No manual shifter?

Hardtop:

Without being sacrastic, I've come to the conclusion that the Italia is NOT for some people. Maybe you've realized that too.

Luckily, there are plenty of alternatives past and present. For me, the modern F-1 box is just fine. I got over that hurdle. Do I miss shifting? Yes and no. Do I like the car I bought? Absolutely.

But, just like there are classic V-12 owners who would never buy a V-8 car or any model made after 1976, the Italia may also be a watermark that separates the generations from one another.

The real question is... how does a car maker move forward if it's forced to live in the past? Is Ferrari just another Morgan or can it evolve as the market changes? They've decided to move forward. I'm sure the Italia would have been a completely different design if they engineered it around a 6 speed rather than DSG. It's a decision they made early on in the process.

Maybe it shouldn't have gone the DSG route. But, I don't think you can blame them either with keeping up with technology and trends.

Let's face it: At some point, the 6 speed will no longer be wanted by almost anyone -- gone the way of the 8 track tape or the CD player vs Ipods. For many in the future, buying a Ferrari with a 6 speed may be the first time they ever tried using a manual AT ALL. That's just the reality of the car business. Manuals in every situation are trending downward and they ain't coming back.

Is it unfortunate? ... yes. But reality none the less.

 

Make your wonder about progress and the future. What will be the technology that makes the 458 gearbox obsolete? Shifting by "thinking about shifting" would be pretty cool

 

Assuming they still have IC engines, then CVT's will be the next step.

Dave the troglodyte

 

I don't really see the gated shifters as "old school". I see it on two levels. One, they look great and two I like the driver involvement, I like to shift, heel and toe downshift and press a clutch pedal....

 

Hello bdelp and All,

I do agree I am for progress and for better technology. As I wrote something similar to this in the other thread regarding this same topic. My concern after you take out the personal preferences towards either F1 or manual, is that in the past the F1 trans in the 360 and to less of a degree in the F430 seem not to be durable enough nor strong enough or have a longevity one would expect in components like these. It seems clutches wear faster and other issues have arisen. I have completely accepted the fact that Ferrari maintenance is higher than other cars and that is just part of ownership. What I don't like is this idea that we the owners are just going to rebuild or replace clutches and trans when they break or wear too early in F1 cars. As I have said in the past if you race, like in the challenge series then yes I expect to be rebuilding components regularly it is racing, but not on a road car.

My concern is the strength and integrity of the new DSG trans. In Porsche's case one knows that Porsche would never bring it to market just to have it because others do or to be the first one to have it if it first doesn't meet the durability standards they set.

As I write this I am for the first time thinking of purchasing a Porsche 911 with the PDK. I have driven it and I am truly amazed. It is very good. And in the past I would have never even considered get anything other than a manual 911. Progress I guess.

Back to Ferrari yes with Ferraris I struggle with the fact that I so love the gated shifter and the way it feels and the sounds it makes. I have driven the past F1s in the F355, 360, 575 and the F430. Personally I did not find them to be to my liking. In the times I have driven them they seemed clunky at slower speeds and did not feel like it liked sitting in rush hour traffic. I do have to say when you are away from traffic and drive the F1 with any kind of speed it does work well and I see the attraction to it. But those F1s did not match the feeling I feel when driving a gated shifter. My hope is that the new F1 DSG trans is extremely improved and does not have any of these issues, like durability and longevity and that the driving feel is better less clunky.

As it has been mentioned that in the case of the 458 the F1 / DSG has been part of the design plan from the beginning and that it is an integrated component of the car not an add on, so this makes me think that it will work far better in the driving feel at least than previous F1s.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers

 

James- It is the identical transmission in all the six speed F1 shifter cars as in those with the manual shifter. No difference at all. Same clutch, too. Only the shifter mechanisms, clutch position sensor, and throwout bearings are different.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

I understand where you are coming from but if you look at the sales figures of manuals on the 360, and especially the 430 Ferrari wouldn't make much money on having that option. They have to keep their costs down as much as possible now untill the economy gets better and sales get up again.

 

I too am an old six speed guy, and one of those who the 458 is not going to be the right car for. Hope as all of might, there will be no manual in this car, Ferrari is not going to redesign the car to satisfy a small number of potential owners. I have owned various forms of non three pedal shifters in (Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghihi, BMW), different cars, and though I enjoyed them, I always felt I was not getting the full experience from the car. I am sure that the 458 will be a wonder, but I think that I'll stick with the cars I have for now.

 

Is the manual gone from the 599's "option" list?

Thanks.

 

'By-wire' tech is the new thing. More is coming...

'Brake-by-wire' <-- future, once hybrid models prove the tech.

Currently still illegal (cars must have mechanical brakes for the law). However once you rid the car old analogue braking you dump the brake fluid, no servo, no brake hydraulics at all, no pads, no discs to wear down you save 100kg's of weight and never need to service them again. - replacing conventional friction brakes with magentic brakes which recover energy (F1 KERS style). They respond in an instant and use 1/10 of the energy of analogue (conventional) brakes with no servicing requirements.

'Drive-by-wire' <-- already here

Started in the 360 with 'Throttle-by-Wire' which removed the physical connection of the throttle/accelerator pedal to a wire revv-ing the engine. Instead its a computer switch (pair of them actually) which measure the angle of the throttle pedal and then pass it to computers to let them decide what level of power to provide. If the Traction system says 'no' you don't get power.

'Steer-by-wire' <-- future, once hybrid models prove the tech.

Again, currently still illegal (cars must have mechanical steering rack (and pinion) for the law). However once you rid the car old analogue steering you dump a whole lot of weight and the steering just becomes digital inputs. This allows software to prevent accidents (!) and also free's up lots of passenger compartment space, it also enables disabled drivers to use alternative controls (only reason why a steering is done with a wheel is due to the legacy of rack and pinion analogue world... this can become a ps3/xbox style controller or joystick once you go digital).

All systems combined allow the car to be remote controlled, all steering, throttle, brake inputs are now digital signals so car can be remotely driven. Sofa chauffeur jobs anyone?

This is all preparing cars for the ultimate move to electric power. A modern engine is at best 45-50% energy efficient, an electric motor can be (current technology) upto 96% energy efficient. Performance will definately be leagues faster, if you consider why we even have gears in the first place its so we can get the engine as close to peak power as possible. With electic motors we always have all the power and torque available at all time so we don't even need 'gears'.

While technically impressive stuff lies ahead, it all sounds a bit iyodine and boring too me. Taking the human and analogue elements out of driving will no doubt make point to point massively faster and more efficient - but more fun??? Yes we've all done 650mph on a plane and it certainly wasn't what I'd call fun...

-T

 

Having recently driven a fifth F1-equipped Ferrari (an '08 430 spider; the others were a '99 360 coupe, an '03 360 spider and '05 coupe and spider), I can make several observations. First, the F1 system has gotten progressively better over the last decade. Second, the F1 (or new DSG) transmission is all about incredible acceleration. That being said, I think that the paddle-shifted transmission is well-suited to the newer cars, which are incredibly fast and quick. However, I'm happiest when driving my two (much slower and less quick) '72 Dinos, clutch pedal and all. I guess that maybe everyone can get along together, after all! Fred

 

prior to becoming a ferrari owner, i had owned ten different convertible sports cars, each had clutch/manual transmission. now that i have a paddle-shifting 430, i would never go back to a clutch!!! driving a vehicle with this technology is more enjoyable that a stick, imho.

 

so many on here who complain about wanting a manual, yet according to Ferrari, less than 1% bought a manual on their 430. proof is in the pudding!

 

Good point. I too enjoyed the gated shifter in my 72 Dino. The big difference is how FAST these cars have gotten, and 7 speeds now. Watch the EVO "track" video. The 7-speed's upshifts and especially the downshifts come so quickly, no manual could even come close.
Diving into slow turns it sounds like 3 downshifts in about a second. A 458 with 6-speed manual would be a fun car but would lose some of its performance capabilities. Us guys who prefer the look and feel of the gated shifter should enjoy it in the older cars. Let the 458 raise the performance bar with all its technology intact.

 

This is exactly the way Ferrari have been marketing it towards people in showrooms. What do you expect? Even the naming, calling their autobox 'F1' was all designed to get people away from manual shifters. If there was a premium on the manual it would probably sell BETTER not less. I guarentee you the sales people are saying the manual's suck and are old technology. That they make the car slow, etc. etc. and that if you want the 'F1' experience buy the F1 option for $8000 usd. etc. One could argue the same about petrol engines, rack and pinion steering, hydraulic brakes, gearboxes. All this stuff is close to being 100 years old (!) and its all mechanical based.

Lets get real here for a moment. Most of the conversion from analogue mechanical systems to digital ones (and essentially thats all we are talking about) rely on removing direct controls away from driver and placing them in the hands of computers first who decide on your behalf whether to shift or not. How much thottle to apply or not, how much steering angle to give you or not. Basically without the sensors and computer software being in the way there is no way the average driver can lap fiorano faster in a car that has similar power and weight to one from 10 years ago. The only real way to improve lap times is to either get the drivers to learn more about car control or build that knowledge in with computer 'by-wire' systems for everything, throttle, steering, brakes, gearshift, etc. This way the cars computers are actually driving the thing much in the same way as a pilot in a Boeing 747, yes he can fly the plane but not without the computer assistance. Faster, definately, more challenging, no way.

Buy an F40 and spend the next 20 years of your life learning how to drive the thing properly...

 

I've never once had a salesman push F1 over stick to me, whether I'm browsing or buying.

 

Fair play.

To be honest most people aren't willing to invest the time required to learn (and really enjoy!) to heel and toe. The thrill that you get from getting it right is really satisfying. There is no doubt about it, automatics are definately easier to use in heavy traffic present in most urban environments so it was inevitable that the manual would eventually demise. I decided to by an AMG Merc for town duties and keep the F-car for fun days but thats another story.

The same thing with fast driving around a circuit or challenging road, learning to feel for the tire slip, learning how to correct an impending slide, understanding how to control oversteer using throttle, brakes and steering. All the skill is going. People just want it now and don't want to learn how to do it themselves. 'By wire' control is slowly eroding the driver involvement and skill required - up until the point where one day we will all wake up and realize its the computers controlling everything, the brakes, steering and throttle. We'll be just there for the ride....

 

More like 10-15% but would certainly be less now with the choice being 7 speeds vs 6.

Dave

 

I never believed to like the playstation idea of changing the gears by paddle shifters.
I then bought a Ferrari 360 F1 at a good price and loved the sensation of fast overtaking and gearing down fast with the F1 paddles.I said to myself this is the way all Ferrari should be,its far safer also!

I was a real traditionalist and love classic Ferrari so much.But I love driving them hard and F1 is the go.

I really think the 458 has also improved getting rid of the light stalks ,as once I wanted to highbeam a dude to get out of the way as I was coming fast,and I accidently geared down and nearly a** ended the dude.

Here Italian Engineers confirm that no manual versions will be built.Look at the center console it is very narrow also.

 

On the 458 i think it wouldn't have been technically very challenging to meet

1) Emissions targets with manual
- The way the stupid tests are conducted with fixed ratio's for a manual box (regardless of the car they are for - absolute insanity!!!) vs whatever the manufacturer wants for the auto means manuals always come up far worse despite this being pure fiction. Ofcourse this isn't actually true but the way politicians now create taxation classes based on o2 from tests means the manual box is no longer in favour.

2) Many of the digital improvements in traction rely on the computers being in control of torque apportionment to individual wheels. This software would need to be more complex (essentially re-written), probably wasn't designed for anything but the autobox.

3) Autoboxes are trendy and are picking up in popularity. For most people the computers are better at car control than they are with a manual. If you've really spent the time to learn this like famous test driver such as ex-lamborgini's Balboni (now retired) then yes manual's give more control. For the rest of the population computers do a better job.

 

Jesus! How many more times is his bull**** going to come up in this thread. Please, stick guys, stop. You know, there are quite a few of us out there who can heel and toe with the best of you, who hold a race license, who post faster times than most others on track days (yes, with three pedals), who have many many track hours under their belts, who's reason for buy Ferraris is the feel and interaction they offer, who are 'real' drivers, who drive the nuts off their cars on the road and blah, blab blah... but just happen to like changing gear more with paddles than with a stick! Seriously, liking paddles over stick is not definitive proof that you can't drive.

 

Your missing the point.

Driver Involvement.

People actually like to link driver involvment with shifting. If your personal preference is just to 'go faster' take plane lessons.

What happens when Ferrari remove the physical link to brakes and steering too. Yes it will be faster and yes more involvement will go with it. Faster, definately, more involving, I don't think so.

 

On this point it is yourself who's jumped to this conclusion.

I do not believe anyone on this thread (myself included) was ever suggesting that people who like paddles cannot drive. Quite a ridiculous conclusion actually as many people have both cars. And many racers too. No its all about how much 'fun' it is on the road (not track), road.

-T