308 V12 conversion begins

I just got an email from FedEx telling me the cam box was delivered to Web Cams today….after they told me Friday they didn’t have the order and I told them to take the order and asdlkhfgitgn trgibtr!

For everyone’s future reference, my experience with UPS and FedEx were night and day different. At UPS you speak to a person in America who is knowledgeable, wants your package to get where you want it to go and is happy to check and confirm anything you ask for….pretty much none of the above at FedEx, hell they even F***ed up the order to cancel the order.

I’ll have to call Web tonight and see if the parts are actually there, not that I don’t trust the FedEx email system you understand……..

 

Well, at least you got the cams out of Joe the Plumbers hands. Hopefully they should be in good shape still.

 

Web has the cams and I've picked a grind.

Intake will be .460- lift, 244 @ .050"
Exhaust will be .413 lift, 248@ .050"

Based on what what Steve had given me for what these masters actuall do I expect these to net about
I: .450, 240 @ .050
E .401, 241, @.050

They seem to pull the power up nicely on top without warming the bottom compared to where I started.
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I decided pipe 1 needed a do-over.

Despite a couple do-overs I've been able to re-use most everything and have very little scrap.....but I'm not seeing enough stuff left in the pile to finish
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More simulator messing around….intake stack length seems to really matter and not getting it right could mean leaving 30hp on the table. Changes as small as ¼” seem to matter to the tune of 15hp and a 500 rpm shift in peaks or so says the simulator.

I’m really going to have to rethink my pick a length and call it good enough plan and give some thought to how I’m going to adjust length easily on the dyno……

I’ve been second guessing my cam choice too. Web has a lot of really good looking options on the exhaust just like Joe did….the intake is harder though as I’m asking for a lot. Web has what I think is probably the perfect duration but it’s a little short on lift at .450 or they have .460 lift which is right where I wanted to be, but its 3 or 4 degrees short on duration. The simulator says its way too close to call without doing test grinds and cam doctoring them but the higher lift came out 2 hp on top with the information I had. What I decided last night was to take the lift and say less duration is good for drivability anyway..….

 

Worrying about 2hp might be a waste of time on a 700+hp motor

 

Not to everyone.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

2hp absolutely is a waste of my time…..the problem is I had to guess at the actual lobe shapes so it could actually be 20 or 30 hp we are talking about. Web gave me .020, .040, .050 lift durations for the masters so I know about what the ramps look like I think and they appear to be quite similar to a couple masters I have full profiles for…so I just assumed they were the same for the first pass look and out popped just a 2hp difference telling me it doesn’t really matter much on top end.

The lower duration/higher lift option was the winner in both the top and bottom end so that is the way I’m leaning……but I’d like the actual profile shapes to be sure I didn’t plug garbage into the simulator.

What’s killing me is the addition of a bunch of little things each hitting me for 10 or 20 hp. My flow is a few cfm lower than I wanted, my port velocity is a few ft/sec lower than I wanted, the intake duration is a little low, the intake track length will be shorter than optimal…..and my 800+hp engine becomes a 700+ hp engine.

The other issue that’s killing me is that this project is very literally costing more than my 1st house. It was a pretty cheap house, but still. I think the engine alone needs another $10k+ …..Lana is not amused.

 

Two words, "Cast Away"

 

Mark:

Have you thought about syndicating this thread, and publishing it, to earn back some of the money you've spent? LOL

Art

 

I could write a book on the evils of project scope creep and use this project as the poster child.

 

Boy does this sound familiar. We had a project ducati, bevel drive, we ended up manufacturing a transmission, welding up the heads, and then ended up with crankshafts that lasted one weekend, made enough power to tweek the frame, so we needed to reinforce that. Never ending grief. Was the fastest bevel drive ducati around, but by then the motor was obsolete, and we had to start on the next generation of engines, which were smaller, lighter, and had a better head design. Ended up doing pretty much the same stuff there to, but I feel your pain on this, and am real glad I'm not there anymore.

Fun thing about this is that someone is assembling that bike again for the vintage stuff. Better him than me....

Art

 

I still think Discovery Channel or TLC should be doing a show on this!

 

+1 on that. I'd really like to see that!!!

 

Mark- This thing has over 400 ft lbs of torque from 3250 rpm on up. Put a hitch on it and you could use it for pulling stumps. Going to need some really sticky rear tires to make traction in the first three gears. Good thing your ECU will have traction control. Your car is going to haul buns for sure. Peak torque is way higher than a 7 liter Corvette or an Enzo. Only the ZR1 is higher. She should cruise on just a whiff of throttle with that kind of torque.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

It doesn't have it YET........

I got kind of luck at Web Cam it looks like in that Melissa who I talked to yesterday is going on vacation for 2 weeks and wanted to get my job rolling before she left. Today she called me with “the billets don’t look anything like the sample cam”….which lead to the whole “let me tell you why” discussion…which lead to the job on Lorrie’s desk putting it at the front of the line. Tomorrow Melissa/Lorie will start at the top of the preference list I gave them and start making test grinds on the Ferrari base circle to see what looks like it works and say they will email me the printouts for what looks decent. The printouts will let me plug the numbers into the simulator and be a lot more accurate with the predictions and by Friday the lobes should be picked and the cams started.

The first thing is they need to go for copper plating, then rough grind the lobe and skim the copper off the jounals, the heat treat, then finish grind....and I can put a check next to make cams....finally.

 

I worked hard tonight and got a decent looking header mocked up….but I’m thinking it was a waste of time because I’m thinking the last tube is all in the way of the other header and change the 3rd tube I need to change the 2nd and I’m thinking I don’t have any of the parts I need. I need to give it all a bit more thought…..
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Do you have room to wrap it behind #2 and bring it in under the 1/2 pair rather than on top? Might help with length balance too.

Rick

 

Mark- Time to send Melissa and Lorie a couple of boxes of See's candy. Ask me how I know. Really cheap for what you will get.

Let me know if you need a link.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

I will once I bring 2 out another inch or so but 3 wil need a tighter radius as well. I may do 1 again as well with a tighter radius at the ead so it tucks a bit closer to the block.

The lengths are all matched as is...I just don't have room for the second header to come in front of #3.

 

hmmm...yes please on the link.

 

The short answer is there should be no need for test grinds.

The longer answer is that cam grinders are generally not cam designers. They measure lobes and generate masters which let them duplicate the lobes. They also work with race teams who have a cam designer and generally own the master as part of the deal. Web has been around for 50+ years and have collected several thousand masters I’m told.

They know the masters they have will generate cam profiles that will move the valves as intended, but the actual shape or the lobe changes when you change the base circle and this can lead to geometry that just isn’t good. There is no problem I know of when you go to a larger base circle, but Ferrari uses a very small base circle and that leads to cams with a razor point on the nose when you try to add more lift while holding duration relatively short. So cam grinders do what they know will give them the correct answer, they grind a test lobe and have a look at it. Then put a note in the file telling them the smallest base circle they’ve tried it on.

Web knows all the lobes I’m looking at work on a 1.063 base circle but I have a .945” so they need a test grind. I’m pretty sure from the spec that the exhaust I picked and my second choice on intake will work just fine as they have very steep ramps which makes the cam nose wider. Lorrie likes a slightly milder exhaust with the intake a picked, so she is going to try a test grind on that too. The worst thing that happens is I go with the grind Steve sent me which is a good cam and we know it works.

 

Another $700 Burns Stainless order went out this morning….

I'm still liking the oval tip idea so I ordered the oval transitions to have a look at as part of this morning's order.

I’m off next week so I asked for 3 day shipping thinking I want the material so I can finish up the headers while I’m home and get them checked off the to-do list.

Tonight I’ll probably get back on to the heads and moving intake ports until the header material arrives. My stretch goal on the heads will be port moves and porting done the 1st of January….which means the heads will be ready for finish machining and assembly and hopefully about Mar 1 I can check the heads off the to-do list and get on to assembling the block and wrap this engine up by summer.

 

If you keep it up Mark, your going to break my record of how much money one can put into a 308!

I would never want anyone to have this curse! Ask my wife!

Cheers

Paul