Countach, the ultimate supercar

You meant the most beautiful Countach S, isn't it

 

Extremely beautiful perspective.

 

Sent a pm...

 

tks for your kind words Christian
i replied to it

 

hi Nuvolari
tks for this, it makes sense to me

p.s. any luck on getting an Lp400 yet?

 

sorry.. i forgot a yellow/tabacco LP400

 

This answer saves your life.

 

pfffew....

 

Very nice sound. Very refined and not as raw or angry as that of a Countach, but for a GT this is music.

 

Fantastic Sound!

Brian

 

Kristian von Hornsleth, has time on his hands, some extra paint and a white Countach Annivesario...
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His request, uttered in paint, will be my pleasure.

 

Tomita Auto LP400, in 1977...
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Hi Emilio,

No luck with the LP400. Unfortunatly for me the market out ran my wallet so I'm left to dream for a little longer. I did however stumble upon an LP500 that I bought for my wife

 

Due to the global economy, the past year has been a unique opportunity to acquire an LP400. If ever there was a time to acquire one, Id have thought this period we are just emerging from was it.

On the demand side, as things slowly but surely get better, I cant see values getting less, or even staying the same. I can only see them increasing. The kids, teenagers and young men from the 70s are becoming very successful and some are starting to fulfill their dreams. As market confidence returns, and broader markets finally start to play a meaningful role with classic cars, I see values being strong not weak.

On the supply side, frankly, I'm having a tough time convincing any owner I know to even think about selling.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Not sure how to say this, but the things I have studied don't seem to support this theory. From what I understand, all things unspung are bad for the health of the car's handling. Any effort to reduce unsprung weight will be rewarded with a suspension that will be more managable and compliant and contribute to better handling. Unsprung weight is uncontrolled weight, pure and simple. If it is sprung weight, then it is somewhat controllable and can be tuned somewhat by spring rates, damper rates, and/or suspension design. Reduce the unsprung weight and you have some immediate benefits handed to you. Build on those benefits and adjust other setings and components to complement the new sprung to unsprung weight ratio and you will definately have a better handling vehicle.

As an aside to this discussion, there is no difference between unsprung and sprung rotating mass unless the rotating mass is centrifugally unbalanced. Like an unbalanced or out of round tire/wheel combo. Neither sprung nor unsprung weight has any effect upon suspension geometry if only the weight of the individual component has been altered.

Reducing weight is a good thing. Not just in the overall weight of a vehicle, but also in the unsprung weight of the suspension.

 

What a fn mess.

 

Please don't in any way feel put off by challenging my post. Most of what you say is correct and I feel that we both touch on different points but are in the end in agreement. To address your first paragraph, I consider everthing there to be correct. My point was that a suspension change in the right direction will improve performance if unsprung mass is reduced. That said, the number of variables to consider (some of the ones I listed) when making a change, coupled to the fact that they are being made to a car which is not likely to be driven anywhere near the edge of adhesion where it would make any real difference means that pursuing suspension changes do not represent a realistic gain.

With regards to there being no difference in sprung and unsprung rotating mass you are correct that there is no difference IF the parts are studied in isolation. The reason that race engineers place an estimated 10-1 premium on unsprung rotating mass is because the huge forces required to accelerate and decelerate rotating unsprung mass consume power equivalent to 10 times the same static mass that would otherwise need to be accelerated and decelerated in the sprung portion of the car. It is a combination of the gains of unsprung mass PLUS the rotating element that already consumes power (think of the engine's flywheel riding in the sprung component of the vehicle) of where the 10-1 estimate comes from.

Lastly I agree that component weight plays no bearing on suspension geometry. The point I was making was that when calculating a new spring rate (for any reason), that the motion ratios of the suspension needs to be taken into account. These are fixed and a function of geometry whether the suspension arms were made from lead (very stiff lead )or titanium.

 

+1

Automotive Vandalism.

Again...

 

Joe, without starting a war I respectfully have to disagree and I will use history as my teacher. I have heard the supply and demand arguments before both tempered and not with world economic considerations. The fact is that the world of collectibles (and a Countach falls right in the description) is very fickle. The reasons for which cars sell for what they do often times has little to do with the economy and its rules.

Case in point. How is it that the price of a driver LP400 hovered around $100K for some 20 years and then doubled within 18 months? It can't be that the whole world was blind to the LP400 for so long and they all decided to wake up at the same time. With limited collectibles the reasons for spikes can be as crazy as Britney Spears being spotted in one that drives up world interest and prices. (Remember the Steve McQueen Lusso and the ripple effect it had on other Lusso's).

On another note if we track the prices of many classic Ferrari's from the 1988 boom, most if not all are today behind (taking into account inflation) those market prices. In those days TONS of people got taken in thinking that they'll never come down. A friend of mine bought a 365BB for $375USD in 1988 almost sight unseen because the market was so hot that he did not want to miss any car that was for sale. 5 years ago he sold the car for $90K having gotten tired of waiting for the market to come around.

My belief is that the Countach market will continue to soften as will the Miura market with more and more cars being put away waiting for the next big spike. They just went up too fast for it to be stable.

From a personal perspective I have valued the Countach at a certain place in my mind. My valuation is based on what I think the car is worth to ME within a certain reasonable frame of income. If my income or net worth all of a sudden tripled maybe that perspective would change but maybe not I don't know. All I know is that from when I was flat broke to right now that I earn an ok living my pricing valuations have always been the same. Any car I buy is to drive and enjoy. I never count cars as part of my personal worth. They are toys and to really enjoy them I do not like to be bothered with affecting their value in any way by using them. At the moment the Countach is beyond my valuation and its spike probably happened 1 year too early for me. Such is life and there are greater tradgedies. Hopefully it will come back to what I think it is worth and if it does not then I will continue to admire them from afar.

 

OK.

I'll take your word for it.

 

Oh boy, do I see a worthy opponent? And I also take no offense to a challenge!! This could get real interesting if we can all agree to be civil towards each other.

You are very correct about the power needed to accelerate and decelerate any rotating mass, whether it be at the flywheel or at the rear wheels. The only real difference between the two is the mechanical gear ratio and rotational friction each has to overcome.

However, this does not really have much bearing (at least as I see it and have been taught) on the vertical gyrations that each corner of the car's suspension has to deal with. The only commonality I can see as being relevant, is the unwanted deflection of the suspension due to the powertrains torque influence on the suspensions ability to absorb these deflection while remaining true to it's task of controlling the tires ability to maintain adhesion to the road.

That simply means we are simply talking about two entirely different things. And at the same time we are trying to say the same thing. Suspension weight influences two separate, yet much related, components. Each additional pound (kg) of static weight is detrimental to the suspensions ability to instantly conform to the road's changing irregularity. Each additional pound (kg) of rotational weight requires more input power to increase it's rpm.

As the power applied to the rotational components of the drive train increases and ultimately increases the rpm of the same, the resulting torque applied to the drive train and then passed on to the suspension components is detrimental to the overall suspension's ability to conform to the road. Twisting and binding interefere with the intended movement of the suspension.

You are right. Rotational weight forces can influence suspension movement. However, static weight reductions in unsprung weight will normally yield much greater results than rotational weight reductions.

 

Very well said!! My sentiments exactly!

 

hahaha, good plan, we all go there!! he deserves it!

 

Nuvolari,

i REALLY hope you are right!!!
i am here cash in hands waiting for them to go back to 100k $ (even 100k euro is OK to me )

this said i agree with Joe these cars are likely to go up again in next years...
the countach is an automotive icon and LP400 is the most collectable of them all...
if you think of other classic ferraris, porsche and lamborghinis (250 SWB, 275 GTB4, 2.7 RS, miura, etc...), and take in cosideration its rarity (157 cars is NOT a big number...) its price looks not so unreasonable

they aslo grew up pretty slowly i think (nothing like the 89 BOOM )
as an early LP400S went from 55-65k euro to over 150k euro in 5 years (2003-2008) and the LP400 from 100k euro to around 300k euro in 5 years

if they did not fall down like a stone in this bad economy, i would feel they will not do in a better economy

of course it is just my 0.02

p.s. as for the "value i would put on one"....well, this is personal, but to me a countach 4 LP is not less important than a gullwing, a 288 GTO or a 275 GT/4...so or ALL of them goes down also...