There's a viscosity calculator available online that will give a calculated viscosity at a given temperature using two reference points. Just for fun, I threw in the 3 oils used above and increased the temp to 125C Which begs the question: as one pushes harder, when does thin become 'too thin'? RLI - @ 125C has a viscosity of 5.0 cSt GC @ 125 C -- 6.7cSt Shell @125C --9.3 cSt (*note Shell is run with the assumption that its 40C viscosity is 80 cSt) oil viscosity calculator http://www.eskoindustries.com/viscadv.php?Deg=C&Temp1=40&Visc1=44&Temp2=100&Visc2=8.6&Temp=150&Calc=Calc
He should be credited for driving the thing even if it isn't on the track. So many of the Ferrari supercars end up as garage queens or concours lawn ornaments. Look at the cars for sale and one of the main selling points being "low mileage".
All of this data, whilst looking impressive doesn't really mean a thing - it's not scientific! Consider the following points: 1) The analysis method used for the 10W 60 was different to the other two samples. Hence you can't compare it! 2) You don't actually say what analytical method was used for all of the tests. Assuming the "GC" and "RLI" oils were analysed using a technique such as ICP, the wear metals in both are the same and are essentially at trace level (therefore within the measuring error of the machine). 3) You can't compare oil from a different car, driven by a different driver on a totally different drive cycle. If you drive your car like an old lady and the engine never experiences above 10% load but your neighbour regularly uses higher engine loads then these are very different situations - you are comparing apples with pears! ps: I wouldn't normally consider leaving oil in an engine for two years to be a good idea. What is the oxidation stability of the "green" oil you are using? Have you evaluated carbonyl levels using a method such as IR in order to ensure your oil isn't becoming highly oxidised?
I have an issue with the "Dr" part. Unless you have a PhD in tribology or a closely related area, using the honorific is frankly misleading on the label. I have a PhD in mechanical engineering. If I were to concoct my own skin ointment and put "Dr 412fan's skin lotion" on the label, it would be a technically correct statement but grossly misleading. Finally, submitting your results to Ferrari means nothing. Let's for sake of argument assume you speak the truth about that, you are not reporting what Ferrari's response is, if any.
I'm not sure of the background of Dr Ali, although I believe I read somewhere that he is a doctor of medicine and a surgeon (looks like I took the wrong road in life as I'd love to own an Enzo!). Hence I agree entirely with your comments. ps: I do have a PhD in engine tribology.
The Shell oil you are talking about shear thinning is fully synthetic and probably based on a grp III or a grp III / IV blend. According to your "lubricants masterclass": "Synthetic oils are a whole different story. There is no VI improver added so there is nothing to wear out." If this were anything like true, the Shell oil wouldn't be shear thinning would it!? Of course the truth is that all multigrade oils have VM (Viscosity Modifiers) and they all permanently shear thin, allbeit some to a greater degree than others. The VI of synthetic base oils is higher than for mineral oils, hence the treat of VM required to achieve the same viscosity grade would be lower than for a mineral base stock. However I can assure you the formulation will still shear thin, no matter what type of base oil is used.
DR. Haas is a heart surgeon. His hydraulics studies started with human blood, then oil.... He HAS an Enzo and we don't.....
Was about to say the same. I was always under the impression that PhD=research. W/a little of that, you would have discovered what his qualifications are. Re: Motor Oil 101
I think he actually cuts them up, and puts them back in, when not running over building debris in the road......... A Micheal DeBakey kind of thing...... Bye!
Why are you so concern when the man is using his car for his testing. He must have some type of faith in the bio oil, I'm not going to knock him for trying it. He's not using your car is he. I kinda like people thinking and doing stuff out of the box. There is nothing wrong unless he is sell the goods and there is engines blowing up. I have not heard of any yet so till then I hope he keeps us informed. He may be on to something new or not but he's not hurting me or you and hell it's green. So what is the big concern.
The concern is that he posts extremely misleading information while trying to convince others to follow him.....and has helped at least 1 person to destroy their engine. He's peddling snake oil (pun intended) with pseudoscience and it's quite disturbing.
I think Ali is performing a valuable service to the Ferrari community with his research on oil. I personally have learned a great deal from him and his threads. That being said, I am with Jim Glickenhaus and use the Ferrari recommended weights of oil for my car (5W-40 or 0W-40). I prefer the Valvoline synthetics to the Shell synthetics, but, like someone said, I do not have an Enzo. If there is an FNA bulletin with a recommended change of oil from the 10W-60 to something lower for the Enzo, I would love to see it. I have the bulletin telling owners/shops to switch to Shell from AGIP, but have not seen anything later. Taz Terry Phillips
I once tried 10w40 in my car. I found zero oil pressure at idle a bit concerning. Twenty minutes later it was in a pan, and I was pouring 20w50 back in. I would feel very uncomforatble seeing zero oil pressure in an Enzo.
There's something wrong with your engine if it produces no pressure because of a switch from 20W-50 to 10W-40. Probably worth investigating.
Couldn't agree more. I have a problem with people suggesting that they are experts in the field when they quite clearly are not. Looking back at the link to the "lubricants masterclass" I have already identified a number of concerns with regards to the technical content. Hence please don't believe everything you read! The situation here concerning the use of non conventional lubricants is very simple: 1)Please feel free to do as you like with your own car. 2)Please don't encourage others to do the same when you are not qualified to do so. The arguments provided may be convincing to those that are not specialists in this area or from a technical / engineering background. However, to people who are highly qualified in this area they are not scientifically robust and pose a potential danger to fellow Ferrari owners who may not have a shed load of money for engine rebuilds when it all goes wrong. End of story.
+1 Oil alone cannot cause a car that had oil pressure prior to the change produce no pressure. there is something amiss inside of your engine.
I have also seen pressure relief valves stick wide open on start up after an oil change. There have been cases where loose clearances in the oil pump prevented sufficient vacuum to pull the oil into the pump.
Hi Jon, Welcome the FChat. You are the first tribologist that I have had a chance to come across on this forum. The question begs to be asked what oils do you feel are do a good job in our high reving Italian engines. Ciao, George
Glassman- You talking about synthetic or non-synthetic oil? If it is synthetic, you are talking about the difference between a 40W and 50W oil. If non-synthetic, the difference between a 10W base or 20W base with viscosity enhancers. Either way, not enough difference to give zero oil pressure at idle. Taz Terry Phillips
Hi George, I work for a major international oil company so on that basis I won't recommend brands as I'm obviously likely to be biased! In my F355 I use a fully synthetic 10W 60, with my sole requirment being to use the best formulation / viscosity for durability (in other words I'm not concerened about losing a little power or fuel economy). The F355 engine runs very hot (whether you are using it hard or just crawling around in the city). On that basis I take the view that the viscosity of an oil is likely to be relatively low due to the high temperatures of the engine (higher average oil temperature than the majority of cars I would say). Hence I prefer to use an oil that can provide good film strength and a relatively high viscosity under HTHS (high temperature, high shear) conditions. Opting for a 10W 60 also means that the formulation uses a relatively high viscosity base stock and it is this viscosity that often determines the performance of a lubricant in a high shear contact such as a bearing (where viscosity modifiers either temporarily or permanently shear thin and hence lose some of their visosity boosting effect).
