308 Horsepower Confusion

I have never seen, nor heard of any 308, Euro, US, whatever making more than 190ish at the rear wheels. I know others have claimed higher, but I want to see how that dyno is set up. I have now seen two Euro QVs on a dyno making 183 and 188 respectively at the wheels. These are Euro cars at the peak of their supposed power in the line.

 

The best thing for the OP is to test drive as many as possible. I've owned 3 and driven a bunch more. They all drive different. Since none are fast, it is better to just buy what feels best. Personally, I think carb cars are very cool and great if you can take care of the little things that come up yourself. The easiest to live with are the QV's and especially the 84-85 which don't have air pumps and did have meaningful rust proofing. They also came with 16 inch wheels standard, a big plus IMO. There is good reason they sell for more.

Dave

 

Here are some 'real life' dyno videos.......

'80 Gti; 200hp and 181 lbft with 10:1 compression, so perhaps the 205 quote is a bit optimistic.
http://www.carobu.com/html/308_gtsi.html


'74 GT4; 235hp from a supposed 'Euro' engine, even though it is obviously wet sump, so not really sure where the 255hp rating comes from
http://www.carobu.com/html/308gt4_euro.html

'83 308 QV; 195 at the wheels which equates to right around the factory quote 235hp at the crank
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=Z45rb9iA_CQ&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DZ45rb9iA_CQ

'78 GT4; putting down about 190hp at the wheels which equates to about 230hp at the crank

GT4; this guy claims that it put down 210hp at the wheels, looking past has bad math this equates to around 253hp at the crank
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf-X5igaHDA

A thread with some F-chatters results. After seeing all the higher rpm band power that the later carb cars are leaving on the table (215-220hp is not bad though) I am now contemplating just taking out the cams entirely with the soon-to-be-performed valve adjustment and sending them out to Webcam to have them reground. $1500 for 15hp is not too bad...and god how I love engines that never stop revving.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127791

 

I'll second that there is no discernable difference on public roads between a 2-valve injected and a QV car. The fastest 308 I ever drove was an early GT4 (non-cat), which was claimed to have had the engine rebuilt or modified to European specs. It was noticeably quicker than any of the half a dozen GTB/S 308s I've driven (all of which were 1978-83; I never drove an early non-cat GTB).

If I were shopping for a 308, I'd start by asking myself if I wanted carburetors or injection, and not worry about if it's an early or late carb car or 2V/4V injected car. Personally, I think the Webers leave a lot to be desired even among carburetors (compared to, say, side-draft Dellortos), and their gargling noise drowns out the much more pleasant note of the exhaust system (and can induce a headache on longer drives) . . . but to each his own, I suppose. No one can deny, however, that the injected cars are more drivable (and consequently usable), whether in cold starting, driving around town, or maintenance. If I had concerns about normal day-to-day or slightly spirited driving (which I do/did), I'd go with injection by a landslide (which I did).

As an additional note about day-to-day and slightly spirited driving, the shifter and clutch can affect the car's drivability as much as the fuel system. Some clutch pedals require considerable effort while others are more average as far as sports cars go (not sure on years). Likewise, there are a couple of different lengths of shift levers (not sure on years), and you may find it easier to shift one 308 vs. another (not sure about internal gearbox differences, or if it is all down to fluid/shims/condition). These kinds of things -- as well as engine noise/resonance, tire size, etc. -- have a far greater effect, in my opinion, on how enjoyable the car is than a possible 15-20 horsepower.

 

Hi Hans, you have the advantage of having an early euro 308, with some good performance upgrades (x-ost, modern ignition, etc.). That all makes quite a large difference compared to stock 308s here in the States....

 

I too have a BMW M3 (E36) and without a doubt it would leave my 328 for dead. (Australia got the Euro spec M3's and they are little rocket ships). That said, there is NO comparison in regards to the WOW factor. The BM does everything so well and so easy, it actually nullifies the driving experience.

Everybody thinks a Ferrari is quicker and more expensive than it really is so why disappoint them? I would NEVER race someone in my Ferrari because we can't win. I don't necessarily mean the race......... Lets face it, if we loose the other driver bags you out as he's beaten a Ferrari, he will let the whole world know about it. If you win he will say, "So you should, it's a Ferrari." If it's close he will still bag you out. Bottom line, it's a waste of time. It sh!ts them even more when you stay 1 mph under the speed limit and ignore them.

Driving a Ferrari is an adventure, not just a journey.

Bob.

 

Yes, agreed David, it's not all about speed. Heck, my 308 looks like it's going 120mph just sitting in my garage.

You were probably going faster in the M3 (both straight line and twisties), but you're right, the sensation of speed is much "enhanced" in the 308!

Cheers.

 

Relax, Hans, these guys are talking about GTb's and GTs's, not GT4's. We know the GT4's are a step above, our little secret.

Uh-oh, word is getting out...

 

260hp? from a stock euro gtsi? i find that hard to believe...

 

Two years back, I went head to head on a straight road with a friend in his E36 M3.

Yes, he beat me, but only by a slim margin. Due to differences in gear ratios, he ended up with 1000 rpm to play with when I reached 7700, and that's when he got a couple of yards on me.

Believe me, there ARE fast 308's out there!!!

Oh, and that guy with the youtube vid claiming 210 hp at the wheels is me... That was before tuning. I ended up with 213 rwhp...

 

The bit in parentheses is important to mention - any American members reading this who had never driven a 328 would begin to question its prowess. The North American E36 M3 was detuned by about 20% versus overseas models and trust me - it wouldn't hold a candle to a decent 328... the North American E36 M3 weighed about 400 pounds more than a 328 and had a 40-horsepower disadvantage.

 

100% correct............

The Euro M3's were 286HP vs the North American's 240HP. Mine is closer to 300HP which is why it performs the way it does against the 328.

Please don't get me wrong, the 328 is a quick car, it's just that the M3 brutally quick.
There is about 0.5 - 0.7 seconds difference over the quater mile. That's doesn't sound much but it equate to about 3-5 car lengths.

Bob.

 

Very well stated, Cliff....I couldn't agree with you more!

 

I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but I totally disagree with them. The US M3 and a 328 both weigh about 3200 - 3300lbs. I have a completely stock '98 M3 and have raced a 355 and just barely lost and not until over 70mph. Also, every magazine article I have ever read comparing the US to Euro versions of E36's says that up to about 100mph they are the same. This because the US version has more torque. Torque=acceleration.

 

I find that incredibly hard to believe. I have now seen two Euro QVs at 188 and 183 (better cams). Both had sport exhausts. The US cars usually have a hard time getting 180. Bert with Carobu had a Euro QV engine on their flywheel dyno (somewhat tired engine) barely making 215bp.

 

This is true, the problem is there are alot of dead cars out there...hence the dog slow comments....many cars have 100,000 miles and guys just trying to make them run and call them drivers, not really knowing what a really good 308 shoudl run.

Last summer in my glass i pissed the hell off of this guy in a benz amg slk on a rural road...he couldnt get away from me anywhere, in the twisties, or straight, up his a$$ the entire time....when we got to a light, we had a chat, he was amazed when i told him the car was 32yrs old...he never imagined that a 308 was that fast...something needs to be said for thiese cars that are that old....and real maintence goes beyond doing belts now

 

Spoken like a true M owner! I've noticed that according to M owners, whichever car they have was the very best generation of that model and was "much faster than magazines say."

The 328 weighs about 2,800 pounds according to Supercars dot net, Wikipedia, carfolio, and fastestlaps.com - none of which, I concede, are terribly reliable sources but they are all consistent and I can't find a single source that gets anywhere close to your numbers.

Meanwhile, I am extremely jealous of your M3. The F355 is about the same weight as the E36 M3, but has a full 130 more horsepower. If you managed to keep up with it until 70mph, your car must be magic! I want a magical car...

 

I think the weights you have for the 328 are the Euro version, the US version should be more like 3200 i think.

 

Wow - there's a staggering difference!! I'll concede I can't find any numbers for the US version so that could very well be the case. I imagine a race between a US 328 and a US E36 M3 might be close. Between an E36 and a 355... not so much.

By the way, we should all remember that the 328 came out a full decade before the E36 M3. If you compare the 328 to its contemporary M3, the E30, it was much faster as the E30 never topped 215hp in the States (and debuted with only 195). If you compare the E36 M3 to its contemporary Ferrari, the 355, the 355 was much faster with its aforementioned 130 horsepower advantage (unless of course you have a magic E36 M3!).

 

The best way is to simply take your car and put it on a dyno. There seem to be too many variables that arent completely clear. i.e. tired engine vs. rebuilt (with what mods) and so on.

Bottom line - its a fun car. It was VERY fast for its time, but that time has come and gone. It looks great, has respectable performance, looks fast, and is an icon of Ferrari.

Get it, drive it, and enjoy it.


PDG

 

Sorry mate but you are wrong.

The exact numbers are:

North American HP = 240
Euro HP = 286

North American = 225lb/ft of torque @4250 RPM
Euro HP = 236lb/ft of torque @3600 RPM

North American 0-60MPH = 6.1 seconds
Euro 0-60MPH = 5.6 seconds

These statistics are straight from offical BMW brochures of 1995 attached below.

The North American E36 BMW M3 was an upgraded 328i.
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Classic!

 

Comparing 30 year old cars with contemporary automobiles is simply ludicrous, as if comparing apples to bananas. They are both fruit but nothing alike when you cut into, or taste them. I think the main argument in the minds of many people, is why would you pay so much for an old ferrari when you can get something faster, far more user friendly for much less......the reason is, because their worth it.