Fatal car crash in the OC. Ferrari involved.

All,

The family has a tribute Facebook site up under the name Luicci Nader. Many pictures are posted, including the two young men out on a happier day in the car. They also have a link to this thread (FerrariChat) on the discussion page.

I am in no way affiliated with the family but understand the sorrow they must feel. I know we have opinions as to "what, who, why" to blame, but please keep their loss in mind and act with the respect we hope our families would get under a similar circumstance.

Opinions are short lived and serve little value but compassion goes a long way in the healing process.

 

Excellent detective work there ferrcatt.

Look, I have seen way too many kids meet a terrible fate in high performance cars that their parents unwittingly provide (the Porsche that wrapped itself around a bay tree down the street from me comes to mind). I would never let a younger inexperienced driver in my hi-per car without supervision as I would never hand him a .357 to go target shooting with his friends. Kids do stuff. They need to be supervised until the caution they need to exercise is instinctive.

The post C&C car control clinic is a fine start for a permanent program in OC.

As for the accident nuances, I can say that once you lose control of a car with ABS, those fantastic brakes aren't gonna stop you at all. Once an ABS equipped car starts sliding, prior to brake application, pressing the brakes are not going to engage them until you get the wheels rolling again. They will release because they sense the slide. You find yourself, in certain conditions, to be just a passenger along for the ride.

Ask me how I know this and I will refer you to my 60 mph ride into a concrete wall with the brake pedal mashed to the floor and no loss of forward momentum. This was because I was actually travelling slightly off straight in a long slide. Had I been more experienced, I would have turned the wheel into the slide and brought the front wheels more aligned with the direction of travel and then applied the ABS brakes. Of course, in this case, I would have run out of road and mashed the concrete wall anyway.

So my conjecture, based on actual experience, is that the car was traveling way too fast and the driver jerked the wheel to avoid an impact that set the car into a slide before he mashed the brakes. Possibly he applied the brakes and attempted to steer clear of danger but so aggressively the car became unsetteld. At that point, there is a total loss of control except for directional, but once he met the center barrier, it was pretty much done. A more experienced driver, or a professional would probably have had the skills to reel the car back under some semblance of control and at the very least select a better crash point than a flat bed truck. It happened way too fast for a young inexperienced driver to recover.

We teach younger drivers to just floor the brake pedal if they get into trouble and they will retain steering control while they slow down. Sometimes, under certain conditions, this does not happen and we need to show them how to regain control and bring the brakes back into their functioning envelope. ABS is a great invention but there are a few times when it can kill you.

 

The most advanced vehicle dynamics systems in the world will not overcome the laws of physics. Even an all wheel drive vehicle with stability control, ABS brakes, GPS, PCH, ABC, GEF is not going to overcome what Isaac Newton discovered. Once you lose grip, because of velocity and momentum, you just wait until you regain enough grip, and unfortunately there were obstacles in the way of these poor guys prior to regaining the grip necessary.

Someone in few posts above mentioned that this could have been much worse, if they had not hit a Tow Truck, but instead plowed into a compact car full of people or children or??? There could be even more dire consequences.

I just can not imagine how the father must feel....

 

Just checked out the facebook page and it is pretty depressing, however, you get the feeling that this younger generation just doesn't get it. You have to read through it and see all the pictures before you catch on. It's hard to describe what I mean and I probably should avoid it anyway.

Still, we have a promising young man dead and his cousin fighting to stay alive. At the end of the day you cannot ignore that tragedy. You are very correct. I could have been much much worse especially at that time of day and that location.

It is amazing that, as I scan the internet for postings and blogs etc., just how calous some people can be; the comments are many times heartless and just plain mean.

 

My fear is that on our watch we get more insane knee jerk legislation like unable to be disabled "tire pressure monitoring systems" because of one car's propensity to rollover. We have alarm systems that can't be removed from cars, We have ever growing CAN feedback systems that cannot be disables for traction control, differentials, shocks. We have dumb lawsuits like the Porsche GT incident where we lost some of our own. Porsche lost and had to pay because of alleged-

"Product liability for selling an unsafe car. This falls into three levels of defect.
1. There was some mechanical problem with this particular car that made it handle badly.
2. There are design defects with the Carrera GT that make it a poor-handling car, mainly tail-happy.
3. Third: The Carrera GT is too difficult a car to handle at high speeds for the average driver without instruction."

Taking responsibility is the solution but what is happening is legislation and lawsuits. Big brother knows what is best for you...
No big screen TV's...uses too much power.
No watering your lawn...uses too much water.
No mail-order bullets....coming next year.
No guns....fewer legal everyday.
No riding motorcycle without a helmet...
No fast cars???????
What the heck happened to the lawn darts I used to play with?
Does any little boy get a BB gun anymore?

 

Nobody has mentioned that the final position of the Mannetino will be important......

You can't do burnouts unless the TC is turned off.

 

It's disappointing to see how many comments here are focused on traction control and technology and racing training rather than the real issue: Accidents like this are 100% about respecting the law and our communities. No one who has that respect for their fellow neighbors will drive in a way that would lead to this situation. It's an unfortunate truth and I hope not to offend anyone but there is simply no way around this fact.

The priority, of course, is in this young man's recovery and in his family's mourning. But as this is a community discussion, I think it's important everyone recognize the potential criminal consequences awaiting him. This appears to be a case of manslaughter and his condition and age do not mitigate that. For any of us who are tempted to drive in this manner on a public street, or even loan our cars to someone who does, the consequences are equally dear.

 

Well said!

 

Perfectly stated and clearly analyzed.

 

I think we are trying to determine if there are outside influences and coming to the conclusion that none suit the evidence at hand.

Northbound on PCH, the road leading to the site is virtually straight. There is a light before the (wide) road very gently heads down hill and to the left in a very slight off camber turn. If the light at the top had been green, the speeds could have been considerable since the driver could see it well in advance, and no other influence needed for a car to drift to the right curb, pop a tire, experience a tank slapper, go over the median, and run into oncoming traffic. Tragic.

I used to sell cars. I would often encourage the parents of under 25yo males to reconsider the idea of certain models, knowing that at best I would see the car come back on a flat bed with the bottom torn out. I know everyone thinks their kids are special and different from other kids, but that is far more rare than anyone thinks. Insurance tables bear this out. But most would ignore my best hints and suggestions.

If I may suggest, make your kid's first car something with ABS and airbags, but nothing else. Make it as light and basic as possible. Then send them to school (the Alfa Romeo school - arosc.org - takes 16yos for $250 for 2 days and is as good as any school costing more than twice) in that basic car. Make them realize the limits of their skills and physics.

These days I drive with a big safety margin on public streets - not only for my own safety, but those around me. The track is far more fun anyway.

 

+1. I think the 308 and 512BB owned by the previous poster were probably much more dangerous cars for an unskilled driver than a 430 with the nannies functioning .

 

Good Points. I hear ya.

 

I disagree and I'm surprised you agreed, Armen. The 512BB and 308 are dangerous but all the nannies in the world wouldn't compensate for the sheer horsepower in the 430. The 430 is a brutally fast car. Not just fast relative to the cars of its time, like the Boxer and 308, but balls-out fast. Nannies help, but they're no match for a strong-willed driver. I can still get my dad's Lexus SUV sideways on an icy road if I try hard enough, and that car has more nannies than a Manhattan co-op.

 

So true. All the electronic aids in the world cannot change the laws of physics and why people die in crashes. Crumple zones, airbags, etc. are not even close to being a match for the power and false sense of security that the 430 provides. The rate of speed that a 430 is able to attain in a very short distance is astounding. The rate of speed a wall, tree or truck is able to instantly erase is even more so. This is a very serious car, as is just about every perfomance car made since about 10 years ago.

 

I think you're missing the point. Older cars can be just as deadly at lower speeds than modern cars. This is not in question, and this is the point.

Yes, increases in horsepower and speed will create an opportunity for something to go wrong faster -- reaction times needed to avoid an accident are much quicker. But, the brakes, grip, and handling also are vastly improved.

And, at the point of contact, an older car can do as much serious damage as a newer car to the occupants at a lower speed.

So, the idea that HP alone of modern cars is the problem is untrue. 20 years ago you could get just as hurt as today in a crash a much lower speed.

 

they were both in the car for abt 25-30mins while it was burning... if u look on the video, the person they took on the stretcher was probably Ralph as they were not rushing. Ralph was 24 years old
Luicci the driver is 18 years old... he is still in critical condition. they actually r keeping him heavily drugged and is unconcious. although he broke just abt every bone there is to break, surprisingly, as we were told by his parents was not burnt AT ALL!

Ralph was really a good man. he was smart... 1st in his class out of 400. he used to work with my dad. i had only once seen my dad tear up, but this time he was bawling
i ask u to plz keep Luicci in ur thoughts and prayers

im probably never gonna check his site again.... but need be, u can email me at [email protected]

 

There are 2 ways to look at it. I'm not agreeing 100%. But I could see what he's saying. Everybody has there opinions.

 

These guys were new to the Ferrari community, but as you can see, this thread is drawing interest from the Facebook tribute page.....huge outpouring there from the Lebanese community in OC.

Maybe a little less armchair quarterbacking is in order?

An accident...tragic consequences.

We all know how easily that can happen...peace.

 

Um, FBB before you get all ahead of yourself, the damages were assigned in this case - the CA Speedway case brought by the estate of the passenger of the Carrera GT - to 4 parties: the estate of the driver (49%), CA Speedway (41%), Porsche (8%) and the driver in the passing Ferrari that triggered the event (2%). Total damages awarded were $4.5 million. Porsche thought it was wiser to just pay rather than fight the comparatively small assessment. BTW, it was based on the fact that stability control was not installed in the Carrera GT unlike every other Porsche.

 

I really think that most of the people posting here don't get it.

It was very lucky that this turned out the way it did. I wish the focus could be on how to prevent what could have been a horrible tragedy - this doesn't meet that test. Easily, an innocent bystander(s) could have been killed. We should count our blessings.

Regarding how to prevent this from happening again... The only way is for those that own these cars to show them, and those they share the road with, much more respect. This discussion doesn't give me much confidence that this will be the case, and this saddens me.

I suppose that maybe 1 in 20 of the people that own these cars is capable of driving them consistently at just 80 percent of their potential - the cars are that good and most drivers just don't have the skill set to deal with them. So please, keep it on the track where the use of the 200th, 300th, 400th and 500th horsepower belongs. And please, please, please always leave the driver aids turned on. Please.

Again, we got lucky this time.

BT

 

Wow I am sorry but it you are really off base here. Of all the drivers I've met that respect others on the roads, it's Ferrari owners -- and I'm talking of all ages.

Just because someone can't control their right foot doesn't mean you can slam and generalize all owners. A heavy foot happens in a Ferrari or a Ford.

There are 30,000+ traffic deaths in the US each year. What percentage are exotic (or 500HP) car owners? Now, what percentage involve drinking or drugs?

If you go back and re-read these entries, most of us say 1) we think it's tragic this has happened 2) we wish the survivor a speedy recovery and 3) unsafe driving probably caused this and that's exactly what we detest.

Still want to slam us?

 

I've not read all the posts on this thread, and I'm not taking issue with or judging anyone's behavior or point of view. I'm just stating what I know works in life.

In my opinion, parenting is the key issue when allowing young people to start any new activity, even if it is riding a bicycle.

When a parent allows a young person to operate a boat, go pheasant hunting, sky dive, drive a car, etc etc,; that parent is making the exact same judgement as an airline captain makes when allowing a new airline captain to go on his own with 200 passengers without further instruction. He's ready. Put simply; confidence he won't bend the metal.

Or, when the local instructor pilot says to the student pilot; OK, you can go solo around the traffic pattern. That does not mean you are ready for Blue Angel loops and rolls or flying a bad weather approach into Chicago. One step at a time.

A parent guides, teaches, monitors, and disciplines if necessary, a young person's progression allowing more and more freedom in accordance with demonstrated successful skill progression.

Before I let my teenage son drive my Boxster or 993 he had to complete two Porsche schools driving schools and drive a few autocross and big track events with an instructor. It wasn't until he demonstrated car control, maturity and judgement was he allowed to go solo. It was understood if he got a ticket he would not drive for one year and he knew I meant it. It was not just motor skills I made a judgement about; it was the trust and confidence to know he wouldn't do something that would disappoint.

 

You are a way cool dad - not for letting your kid drive the Porsche or establishing strong boundaries, but because you sponsered him through 2 DE's. You did what no high school driver's education class anywhere in the US does and you gave him a chance to survive a future situation you know will come some day.

As for the parents of the driver in the accident, I am pretty sure they know their failings. No sense drilling it in here. This does serve as a lesson to us all, well not me since I am childless.

The primary death dealer in auto accidents remains DUI. Exotic car fatalities are rare, but high profile since they make "good" (i.e., sensational) news. Next on the list, but way down there is distracted driving (cell phone use, texting, make-up application, eating/drinking, changing the radio, etc.). I say it every time I can: Driving is multi-tasking, so don't do anything else while you are driving!

 

+1. my parents, sensing the inevitable, sent me to Skip Barber when I was 16. I can't tell you how many times that saved my "invincible" @$$.

 

I agree on this completely, mine did the same thing, and absolutely has saved me in a couple different ways (including defensive situations)