Ferrari: When is enough, enough?

Hello,

This question has been answered in the design of fighter aircraft. The limits of the human body dictate performance features. My old 93 BMW 850 has stats close to recent GT sedan type cars, so I think that the 200mph barrier is the real cost determination. Below 200mph, many cars come close, but over 200mph, the cars are few and very expensive. I think that the Porsche 911 type cars seem close to being an answer to your question since the basic design has remained unchanged. A new sexy shape in red is always what we're looking for.

 

The future of cars will be in computerisation. Computerchips in the pavement comunicating with computer chips in the car and making corrections in case the driver falls asleep etc. If you look at modern cars it feels as if the modern computer technology has gone unnoticed still. Chipprices are now so cheap that it will soon be feaseable to install them into anything and everything, like even roads.

Helmut

 

The speed cameras are bad enough. Don't give them any ideas!

 

Power-wise, I expect the factories who really want poser to be able to reach 140 HP/litre in another 15 years. Motorcycles got to this point 8 years ago with carburetors! In Automobile-dom its all about maintaining emissions while getting as much power as the factory can squeeze throught he emissions regulators. Emissions are what keeps the cam timings down, however with the advent of direct injection bigger cams can be utilized.

The airflow systems on F355, 360, F430 are all capable of feeding their engines to about 10K RPMs even with the short cam timings. Add direct injection, variations on the cam timings or some breakthrough on high RPM electronic valve actuators, and 12-14K RPMs are completely possible withint emission regulations.

At this point, all that is required is the right internal parts to deal with these RPMs, and careful choice of external pully diameters so the ancilaries are not over nor under spun.

Time frame: 2025 for 140 HP/litre

History: F355 :: 107 HP/litre 8500 RPM, 360 CS :: 116 HP/litre 8500 RPM; 430 :: 112 JP/litre 8500 RPM, 430 Scud 119 HP/litre 8500 RPM, F458 126 HP/litre 9000 RPMs. 15 years gained 18% in HP/litre, or about 1%/year; and about 1/3rd of the pace of the motorcycles from 95-05.

Of similar remarkability is the progress in suspension dynamics and developments of real active suspensions for real road cars. The typical sports car road tire is capable of 1.25Gs of cornering forces, yet the current chassis/suspensions are capable of only getting 1.05-ish out of them (at street velocities). Active suspension technologies will close this gap, but, still, tire technology is not static either.

But the question was about design versus performance. I happen to own an F355 because, to me, it is significantly prettier than the 360/F430 that replaced it. To me, again, once a car gets as fast as 0-60 in 5.0 seconds the rest is gravy but not essential, for 0-60 does not tell you what the car feel like with the tail hung out a foot drifting through a 120 MPH turn with your foot flat on the floor.

Overall, every street driver is going to have a particular limit, of their own choosing, and if the car is faster than that limit, no more performance is going to be required. Desired, yes, but required, no.

 

By New Year's eve, 2025 -- the super cars of today will be outlawed due to excessive speed, danger, or polution, too loud, too unsafe, too restricted by insurance-- or be too expensive to drive (no one will be around to fix them), or the fuel that we get then will be incompatiable with today.

Performance of future cars will be limited and controlled by black boxes mandated from Congress, the EPA, or have speed taxation -- similar to bridge and tunnel tolls -- issued by local states and municipalities (the faster you go, the more you drive, the more you pay).

We are living in a golden age. We just don't see it yet. Take advantage of it.

Those cars you can buy 15 years from now will be only a faint resemblance of what we have today. It's too bad that the kids of today will never get the chance.

 

Yep. It's extremely sad, and frustrating that of all things for people and politicians to hate is the automobile.

How many of us will take the chance and just get ticket after ticket just to have a cruise. Too bad the idiots in power will make it a felony.

 

Recent increases in performance for the most part have been past the point of usefulness. Even modern brakes are limited now by the driver's reactions more than in raw stopping power. And modern DSG gearboxes swap cogs fast enough that further improvements have no practical value.

Regarding speed, look at the Bugatti Veyron. Where can you drive 253 mph? It's faster than a Formula 1 car. And how significant is 0-60 in 3.0 sec (Porsche 997 Turbo PDK) versus 3.2 sec (Ferrari Enzo)?

I think design is already becoming more important. We've seen that in vintage car values far surpassing modern car values, and in the continued sales success of Ferrari in the face of technologically superior competition.

 

Thank you, Mr. Gloom and Mr. Doom.

I would guess that if electric motors are part of the equation then we will see zero emissions, unprecedented torque that makes our current dino-mobiles seem sluggish, and plug-and-play maintenance that anyone can do in his own garage.

No more oil changes, no more timing belts, no more leaks, no more bad syncros, no more fuel line fires, no more $1000 ignition wire sets for TRs, no more exploding differentials, no more paddle shifters...

 

And another 'benefit': Quiet enough to put all the greenies to sleep and keep them off our backs. And enthusiasts at home watching youtube Ferrari clips.

 

I'll just have to go back to my slot car days and brush up on motor rewinding.


Seriously though I think we will be seeing a move towards smaller motors with better emissions, better fuel economy and higher HP per liter. The governments of the world are going to be forcing the issue through legislation. Do not forget that the green movement is very strong in Europe.

 

I doubt it will be a felony to drive one around, but I *do* think it will probably require a very expensive special carbone/whatever offset license.

 

+1 Agreed. I think nowadays, if they simply charged higher fees just for the privilege of getting a license (like in Germany) me thinks you'd have much less cars on the road, ie - lesson carbon emissions.

Make the driving tests significantly harder = lower insurance rates...

 

All --

Point one is that Ferrari is notorious for ignoring outside input. They do whatever they want to do whenever they want to do it.

That said, my guess is Ferrari will end up making three kinds of cars:

1. High performance track-only cars that will not be subject to much regulation, e.g., challenge cars.
2. GT style cars for the street that will focus on style and fun. Thirty-to-ninety will be the focus instead of zero-to-sixty or doing the ton squared. (Electric cars will do great here.)
3. Super cars for the truly demented.

I could be wrong.

Dale

 

I think the next era in car making will be in the fight for lighter weight and green energies/fuel efficiency. "0-60 in 2 seconds? That's it? Yeah, but with an MPG of 45" or "0-60 in 2 seconds...using nothing but the sun" will be the basis of the next stat wars.

This is all speculation!

 

Just for fun, I'll toss another scenario out.

Feel.

Feel is the next frontier. Making the car customizable by the driver in something akin to 'real time'. It'll be computer-adjusted/controlled changes, but imagine being able to sit in the car and customize exhaust sound, shock damper settings, aero aids etc in order to make the car feel the way you want it to.

What we have now tends to be simple: "press here for sport". This'll go farther - allowing for finer adjustments by the driver.

You can then make your (newer, lighter, more fuel-efficient) F-car louder and harder, quieter and softer,l faster in a straight-line, etc.

It likely won't be (much) faster, but you'll be able to tinker more with the car and make it feel different while driving.

Think of it as your own Indy (or Lemans or whatever) pit crew.

 

Fossil fuel will eventually become extinct.
Electric will become too pollution prone due to coal burning
Nuclear will never be safe..

We have not tasted the jump to light speed but its coming..
Anti gravity and perpetual motion concepts will lead the forefront..

I am working on a system as we speak.
I may not have it but too many need it,
It will arrive.
its called free energy !

 

Mr. Gloom is just being honest.

Maybe in the future we will all buzz around in super speedy electric cars and talk to each other about the latest software upgrade, internet applications, and how they just rebuilt their armature for a few extra ponies, but most of us will long for the good ol' days of last century.

 

see, and some of you guys make fun of ME for having had so many cars, and not keeping any of them for very long.

at least when i am old and withered i can say that i owned and drove these cars, and share my thoughts on what they were like to live with.

even if for just a short period of time.



Michael

 

I don't know about the "plug-and-play maintenance that anyone can do in his garage", but I do think cars are going to become less mechanical and more computerized and electic. So to work on your own car, the "mechanically inclined" of us will be take a back seat to the computer geeks (who will be employed by the manufacturers).

This is not to say the cars will not become more capable, I believe they will.

 

I think you read way too far into my post.

I look forward to see what advances will be made in the future. I'm just unsure what to expect. The "no fun Police" are out there, and they want to rule the roost.

 

Very possibly ...... "Once upon a time", it was the "carb tuners" who were "the man" - I could (humbly!) tune a pair of SU's on a Mini, re-jet some Webers on a twin-cam Lotus, and *feel* the results..... Then electronics came along, and the "chip tuners" took over for a while. "Motor rewinding" may be next.....

If we're going electric, those motors are going to need "rebuilding" at some point - Why not get ahead of the game and do your own "hot winds" like we did on the slot cars?

+1

TG recently featured a (diesel?) BMW that, when driven thru "the average city" actually *cleaned* the air before spitting it out..... JC was amazed!.....

I am a little surprised we haven't (really) seen any of the "clean diesels" here in the States as yet.

+1 [I think....]

Returning to the OP, it brings to mind the Q to Enzo;

"What's the best car you've built?"
"The next one....."

And the "next one" is *always* faster/better/lighter/more efficient and more "outrageous" than the last one Always has been, hopefully always will be.....

My 02c, cheers,
Ian

 

If you look back 25 years, the cars were slower, less reliable, and no where's near as good looking. Even the Prius has decent HP, and it's 0-60 times would be great 25 years ago. My recollection is that 427 Cobras and Corvettes from the 60s didn't run under 13 seconds in the quarter mile. Nowadays, we have sedans that do that with ease. We will have faster cars, better cars, and a lot more expensive cars.

Art

 

Flying Cars!!

 

Couldnt agree more

Unless you are racing the car who cares if its 0-60 is 4sec or 2sec ? not me...maybe sme teenagers do.

Anything that can go to 60 in ~4sec and hit the 1/4 in less than 12.5 is plenty fast for me. At that point my priorities become looks and fun to drive (which isnt necessarily related to power)