...a real classic Maserati! | Page 17 | FerrariChat

...a real classic Maserati!

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by wbaeumer, Feb 2, 2008.

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  1. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

    Jun 13, 2007
    105
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    John de Boer
    I saw this car in the 1970's or early 1980's when it lived a few miles away. It was the first one of these that revealed its Pinin Farina body number to me. Don't think I took any photos but I did take a few notes.

    Chassis 084 red paint
    Engine 2030
    Pinn Farina #10203 (I no longer recall where I saw this number but it was the whole number.)
     
  2. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

    Jun 13, 2007
    105
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    John de Boer
    I saw this car a about five years ago in a bodyshop in Modena. The engine fitted at the time was 2022 but it had been restamped "2030" by a previous owner who had (thankfully!) not done a thorough job of obscuring the original number ... presuming the subterfuge was not even more devious than it appeared.
     
  3. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

    Jun 13, 2007
    105
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    John de Boer
    #403 iicarJohn, Nov 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Perhaps 055?

    Harry Reynolds sent me this photo a few years ago. It was taken circa 1960, I would guess in the Pennsylvania area. Don't know if he took the photo or if it is someone else's. I will check. The A6 had a Jaguar engine fitted according to what Harry told me at the time. Harry should have a book coming out in the forseeable on Formula III racing in the USA. Should be good.
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  4. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

    Jun 13, 2007
    105
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    John de Boer
    #404 iicarJohn, Nov 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  5. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

    Jun 13, 2007
    105
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    John de Boer
    #405 iicarJohn, Nov 21, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2009
    I have a few notes but nothing truly definitive.

    Engine 2017 was fitted to A6GCS 2053 for a time (photos in Viale Ciro Menotti) as a new A6GCS engine was being built in Modena. When 2017 was removed to fit the new engine (numbered "2053" but in a non-typical location) I don't have any notes about what happened to engine 2017.

    Engine 2022 was fitted to 2030 by FGM following his previous reported use of an A61500 engine but I don't know which one. I have a vague recollection that Harry Young told me that it was the original engine from his 084 and he was a bit perplexed as to the "why". He was very happy to have the 2 liter engine in his A61500 as he felt it was still a bit anemic even with two liters? The "why" might have had something to do with the fact that 2030 had been fitted with a Chevrolet previously and ... something "Maserati" was better than nothing?
     
  6. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

    Jun 13, 2007
    105
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    John de Boer
    #406 iicarJohn, Nov 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  7. ColdWater

    ColdWater Formula Junior

    Aug 19, 2006
    621
    bicoastal USA
    #089 is an enigma to me. Both Hofer's Record of Original Delivery as published in Maserati Information Exchange March/April 1981 and the factory's hand-written ledgers show #089 to be one of the five original "3C" cars (#086, 087, 088, 089, 090), with triple Webers per the "competizione" specification described in the 15 January 1947 Auto Italiana article at post 381 above.

    Hofer and the factory ledger also show the original color of #089 as Amaranth, as opposed to its current green. #089 has since lost its trafficators, and had inauthentic signal lamps added.

    #086 is the only A6 1500 of which I'm aware with just two seats and a back deck, and indeed the Dichiarazione di Vendita dated 15 September 1949 unambiguously states "CARROZZERIA: Berlinetta a due posti". Logically this would be the 'competizione' configuration. Yet #089 has the usual rear seat, now with inauthentic upholstering. Unfortunately the configuration of #087, 088 and 090 are unknown to me.

    The Pinin Farina number of #086 is #9988. Compared to #089, that's a difference of 217 in PF numbers vs. just 3 in Maserati chassis numbers.

    So with #089 we see some inauthentic modifications, significant differences from the one other surviving car of its putative sub-series, and at least 11 changes of registered ownership within Italy over sixty years (see post 209 above). Is this the real #089 ? Or perhaps a substitute on the same chassis number to save taxes, after the real 'competizione' #089 was used-up ?

    Or could it be that #086 is unique, both the only 'berlinetta a due posti' and the original triple-Weber set-up ? The intake manifold on #086 is quite unlike those on other cars in which triple carbs have been retrofitted. Could the ditto marks in the factory ledger entries for #087, 088, 089 and 090, interpreted by Hofer to mean also '3C' versions, actually refer to the standard "A6/1500" of #084 and 085 ?
     
  8. ColdWater

    ColdWater Formula Junior

    Aug 19, 2006
    621
    bicoastal USA
    See posts 226, 229, 374 and 375 above. It could be either #051 or 055, although the headlight bezels look different. But we don't know how #054 and 058 were configured.

    Where is this car today ?
     
  9. ColdWater

    ColdWater Formula Junior

    Aug 19, 2006
    621
    bicoastal USA
    #409 ColdWater, Nov 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The intake manifolds on #053 are typical of retrofits, and this is also suggested by the serial number shown on the Tipo 36 DO 2 carb (#1276, versus 805, 864 and 866 on #086).
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  10. ColdWater

    ColdWater Formula Junior

    Aug 19, 2006
    621
    bicoastal USA
    This is #071. According to Hofer, the factory ledgers indicate original delivery to "Officine Maserati MO 20318 - Bira" in Modena on 16 March 1949. It was blue.

    From http://forix.autosport.com/8w/bira.html:

    "After the war Bira resumed racing at Chimay, on June 9, 1946, finishing 6th with his Maserati 8CM. At the Ulster TT on August 10th he was back as a winner with the rebuilt "Hanuman". For 1947 he got himself a new Maserati 4CL and with it he won the Grand Prix des Frontières. In 1947 he also became a works driver racing for Simca-Gordini, winning at Reims and the Manx cup.

    In 1948 he continued racing Maserati 4CL and 4CLT/48, winning with both cars. After the season his long partnership with Chula ended. In 1949 Bira continued racing his Maseratis for the Swiss Enrico Platé stable, winning the Swedish Grand Prix and taking a lot of podium places. He continued racing for Platé in 1950, taking 5 points in the new World Championship but the cars were outclassed by the Alfa Romeos."

    We can only speculate as to who actually paid for #071, but it seems natural that Bira would use a Maserati street car when he was running Grands Prix in their monopostos.
     
  11. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

    Jun 13, 2007
    105
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    John de Boer
    Hi Don,

    I worked for several years on a "Bira" Maserati 8CM (3011) and have paid more than a bit of attention to his automotive exploits. I am aware that Bira's name appears in association with N. 071 but I am still not certain that it was not merely registered to him. There is no real reason to think he was not the owner but we still don't really know. There are cases where cars were registered to certain people for liability's sake and sometimes for other reasons of "convenience". Since Bira was a Siamese prince and yet may have had no intention of taking the car "home" it may be that this was one of those cases? He was a very good customer at Maserati and may have gotten the use of a car as a courtesy?

    I don't know the answer and Hofer's published listing does not have the answers to hundreds of additional questions that I would like to ask.

    John
     
  12. ColdWater

    ColdWater Formula Junior

    Aug 19, 2006
    621
    bicoastal USA
    But that's part of the fun and the mystique, no ?

    Many thanks for posting your thoughts and information, I've certainly gained greater knowledge and insight through the exchange.

    Best,
    Don
     
  13. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,987
    #413 wbaeumer, Nov 23, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
    Don & John,
    the car actually was registered to Bira on March 17, 1949. If he ever drove it? Who knows?

    On July 17, 1949 the car was sold to "Mimmo" Dei who paid 2,900,000 Lira for it.

    THen the history is as follows:

    Oct. 23, 1950 sold to Margherita Sambonet (Via dei Candini, 4) Rome/I
    Nov. 14, 1950 registered in Rome.
    Nov. 30, 1950 new registration ROMA 141614

    10. April 1953 sold to Enzo Forlivesi –(Via Ella 12) Milano/I, 23. April 1953 registered on plate MI-231008

    24. March 1986 officially declared as „demolished“!

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  14. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,987
    JOhn,
    #055 was owned in 1997 by Joe Alphabeth from CA. He owned the original engine in 2007 but the car was gone. No idea where it is today.

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  15. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

    Jun 13, 2007
    105
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    John de Boer
    Hi Walter,

    I've just received (early yesterday) the visura for the Modena plate from Corrado Bellabarba and it shows quite clearly that this car was registered 3//49 to Maserati and not to Bira. Bira did use the car at Silverstone in May, as shown by the photo copied from MotorSport. And yes, the car did make some travels in July to Guglielmo Dei, but not far as Dei's address was in Modena at the time rather than his more typical Roma location. Then, the car was sold February, 1950 to dott. Mario Nardilli in Genova except that Dei seems to have failed to record that detail until the car was sold again to Margherita Sambonet. I wonder if Mario Nardilli is the same Nardilli who was co-driver (rider, as the rules required) at least twice with Carlo Pintacuda in 1934 in Alfa Romeo racing cars?

    Although the Modena plate reported it, I'd not yet researched the followup Roma plate and thank you very much for the information that it went subsequently to Milano.

    John
     
  16. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

    Jun 13, 2007
    105
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    John de Boer
    Hi Walter,

    Are you sure about the plate "MI231008" identification? I've checked my Milano plate listing and that plate would have been issued early in 1954. However, if the plate was MI213008, then the plate probably was issued 23 April 1953 as you indicated.

    John
     
  17. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

    Jun 13, 2007
    105
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    John de Boer
    I should be sleeping but I am intrigued by yet another mystery.

    It is interesting to note that 071 was "sold" (at least in retrospect) for a brief period to Mario Nardilli "of Genova" and then to Margherita Sambonet of Roma.

    Then, to note that 077 was sold to Margherita Nardilli in Roma.

    This might not be mere coincidence? I have to wonder if there was some sort of business relationship between Guglielmo Dei and the Nardilli clan ... who may have had multiple addresses?

    John
     
  18. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,987
    John,
    yep, according to my computer the no I posted was/is correct! To be sure I have to check my records - but I am in a process of moving to a new flat, so everything is in boxes (...sic.!). As soon as "The Eagle has landed" I will re-check.

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  19. Wolf

    Wolf Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
    500
    A6G 1500 #052 for sale at Bonhams Retromobile in January. Check their website.

    Regards

    Wolfi
     
  20. ColdWater

    ColdWater Formula Junior

    Aug 19, 2006
    621
    bicoastal USA
    Thanks very much for the alert. Quite a price estimated for the car depicted in posts 206 and 256 of this thread.

    Also Allemano berlinetta #2117 for sale on the same day in Scottsdale by Gooding.

    Don
     
  21. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

    Jun 13, 2007
    105
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    John de Boer
    Thanks to Corrado Bellabarba once again, I received a legible scan of the A61500 production ledger. Scans of two pertinent pages have been shared with Don as they impact what has been discussed relative to N. 086. Previously I'd had only a very poor copy that was frustrating to try to read and some of it was completely undecipherable. This copy also has some mysteries waiting to be explained but it does reveal that some of the information that has been reported to date has been interpreted incorrectly. So we have some work to do to try to figure out how to correct some mistaken impressions. It will take some time and some more study to be certain of some details. The ledger reveals that were several "3C" cars that have not been reported previously. I am still uncertain as to whether some of the previously reported "3C" cars were actually 3-carburetor" versions as the markings could be interpreted in two or more different ways. In any case, the study is not finished ... by a long shot!

    Happy Holidays.

    John
     
  22. richardowen

    richardowen Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2004
    841
    Montreal, Canada
    A6 1500 '052' will be offered at Bonham's upcoming Retromobile sale.

    The description is as follows:

    "We are advised that chassis number '052' was extensively tested by the factory on the roads around Modena between October 1945 and September 1946. '052' is the second A6 1500, the numbering sequence having commenced with '051'. However, the latter had previously been classified as a Tipo 6CS/46, so arguably '052' is the first of the true A6 1500s. In its original form, the car was fitted with a Maserati-built barchetta body, pictures of which are on file together with dynamometer sheets recording tests carried out by the factory on the special racing engine, number '052', which features individually water-cooled cylinders. In 1948 Maserati sent the rolling chassis to Carrozzeria Zagato, where it was re-bodied with two-seater 'Panoramica'-style coupé coachwork in aluminium. This was the first such co-operation between Maserati and Zagato, making this car of even greater historical significance.

    The Maserati was then sold to its first private owner, Guido Barbieri. Wanting to register the as-yet un-homologated car in Milan in his name, Barbieri obtained certification and declarations of sale from both Maserati and Zagato, which were issued in January and October 1949 respectively. In February 1951 Barbieri sold the car, which enjoyed seven further owners, coming into the possession of the last – Alfio Cosentino Puglisi of Arcireale, Sicily – in January 1972 (a full ownership list is available for inspection). A well-known collector, Alfio Puglisi kept the Maserati for the next eight years before selling it to the current owner in November 1980.

    '052' has benefited from full restoration in Italy while in the current owner's care: the body, engine and gearbox being overhauled and the interior re-trimmed. In 2003 the car was featured in an extensive article published in the Italian magazine Ruote Classiche (April edition). Currently registered on Italian plates, it comes with libretto and CDP (certificate of property) in the current owner's name. A rare opportunity to acquire a stylish Gran Turismo from an historic and respected marque, eligible for a wide variety of prestigious historic motor sport events including the Tour de France and Mille Miglia retrospectives.

    Pictures on this link:

    http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=lotdetailsNoFlash&iSaleItemNo=4515094&iSaleNo=18191&iSaleSectionNo=2
     
  23. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,987
    John,
    I just checked my files again. The ACI-records stated the registration clearly as MI-213008.

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  24. ColdWater

    ColdWater Formula Junior

    Aug 19, 2006
    621
    bicoastal USA
    #424 ColdWater, Jan 18, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2010
    Having just received and reviewed Tabucchi's book cataloging the models from 1926-2003, I'm inclined to think we can put to rest any remaining doubts about the meaning of "3C".

    In the March/April 1981 issue of Maserati Information Exchange, Mr. E. Hofer of Germany presented a table entitled "Record of Original Delivery" for fifty-six A6 !500 vehicles. A footnote stated that the information had been transposed from the factory's hand-written ledger sheets, photocopies of which I have now recently seen myself. Hofer distinguished #086 as the first "A6/1500/3C" and suggested with ditto marks that the next four cars, #087, #088, #089 and #090 were also to that specification. This interpretation gained currency as #086 was periodically exhibited with documentation stating that these five cars were modified for competition purposes with triple carburetors and other upgrades.

    There has always been a degree of confusion about triple carburetion on these cars because many were retrofitted. In hindsight the A6 1500 in single carburetor form has often been criticized for insufficient power, without taking into consideration that the low level of tuning was a necessary response to the very poor quality of fuel available in postwar Italy. Maserati was certainly capable of delivering higher performance as it did with other models of the era, but the A6 1500 was made for the street. As fuel quality improved, and as owners sought to use their A6 1500s in competition like the Mille Miglia (by 1952 four participated - #074, #079, #083 and #091), triple carbs became the standard retrofit (albeit with at least three different types of intake manifolds).

    The strongest doubt about Hofer's "3C" list arose from the apparently original single-carb configuration of #089 (e.g. see posts 199, 201, 203, 209, 211 and 400 above). It seems that nothing other than original delivery information is available for #087, #088 and #090.

    Upon examination of the factory ledger for 1949, it now seems apparent how Hofer went astray. For #086, "/3C" is written over the line into the adjoining column. Because the "A6/1500" designation for #086 is extended via ditto marks to #087, #088, #089 and #090, Hofer (wrongly) assumed that "/3C" applied to these cars as well.

    Aside from transgressing the column line in the ledger, there is other reason to believe that "/3C" was added to the ledger after the ditto marks for #087, #088, #089 and #090. The latter four cars were delivered in April through June 1949. Two months later in August 1949, #086 was tested by Guerino Bertocchi. His handwritten notes indicate that the three Weber 36DO2 were installed at the instruction of Commendatore Orsi for a special consignment. The original purchaser's intent was to run the car at Le Mans, as confirmed by a January 1950 acceptance letter from L'Automobile-Club de l'Ouest and an oral affirmation by Bertocchi to one of the subsequent restorers of the car. The triple carbs were likely installed just prior to the test, and the "/3C" entry to the ledger was thus likely made circa September 1949 when the car was released for delivery to Paris.

    In the factory ledger page for 1950, there is an entirely separate sub-column for the "3C" designation. #070, #091 and #092 were completed in April 1950, seven months after #086. #095 and #076 were completed in May 1950, #097 and #098 were completed in June 1950 and #104 and #105 were completed in July 1950. There are thus ten (10) A6 1500 "3C" cars, meaning equipped by the factory with triple Weber 36DO2s.

    Tabucchi says almost the same thing on page 153, specifically indicating cars "with triple-carb engine". Unfortunately he confuses a few of the chassis numbers, which are admittedly difficult to read in the ledgers although Hofer assists by otherwise quite accurately transcribing this data. Tabucchi thus lists just nine (9) "triple-carb" cars. His inclusion of #086, #070, #091, #092, #095, #097 and #098 agrees with the factory ledgers. Tabucchi says that #094 and #106 have triple-carbs, but the factory ledger instead names #076, #104 and #105. Among these disputed cars only #106 seems to have survived, and if I recall correctly from seeing its engine last year it is single-carb (affirming the ledgers over Tabucchi).

    Lots of details, but I think the conclusions are straightforward and sound. The "3C" designation indicates those cars originally fitted with triple Webers from the factory. #086 was the first to be built in this manner, apparently prompted by the buyer's intention to utilize the car for competition, and others followed a half year later for a total of ten.

    Don
     
  25. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,987
    #425 wbaeumer, Jan 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Don,
    many thanks for this very informative details. Its a pitty that #086 never appeared in Le Mans 1950 and I am still seeking photos of your car when in France at that period.

    It would be interesting to find out more about this A6G-1500 that raced in Argentina. This 2 photos comes from an album that is owned here by one of the forum members from southern Germany.

    Ciao!
    Walter
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