I guess you must have got that part wrong. Where did I write that he did it for the sake of the sport?. For all I know, he may have done it to ease a guilty consience or as an act of vengeance, I'm not Fernando Alonso so I'm unable to give his reasoning behind his actions. A little off topic, but as My memory of the McLaren "Spygate" incident has been called into question, along with My opinion of Ron Dennis, here's some of the "highlights" that I recall: 1st) http://www.buzzle.com/articles/145343.html Interesting to note: The McLaren team hit back in the formula one spy scandal yesterday, denying that confidential Ferrari documents found in the chief designer's Mike Coughlan's house were handled by any other member of their staff, and insisted that no team member knew about their existence before legal action began a fortnight ago. 2nd) http://www.buzzle.com/articles/144824.html I found this part interesting: Team principal Ron Dennis has maintained his team's innocence throughout the affair, while expressing his honesty and integrity had been called into question. Speaking at the British grand prix last Friday, Dennis said: "I can categorically state there are no developments whatsoever that have occurred on our cars relating to this. I can comfortably say this will not end in anything that causes McLaren any embarrassment." 3rd) http://www.buzzle.com/articles/143994.html Of interest: McLaren attempted to reassure Ferrari that they had not used any of the data in the development of their MP4-22 challenger. 4th) http://www.buzzle.com/articles/152308.html Again, of interest: McLaren reject the notion that any aspect of the Ferrari F2007 was incorporated into the design of the MP4-22, pointing out that it was testing competitively from the middle of January, almost two months before the first alleged contact between Coughlan and Stepney. 5th) http://www.buzzle.com/articles/152401.html The outcome: McLaren were today stripped of all their points in the 2007 Formula One constructors' championship after being found guilty of spying on Ferrari. Now as I recall it, there were three items of Ferrari's intelectual property definately found on the McLaren plus two other possible items, and I seem to recall that at least half the design team at McLaren were found to have knowledge of the stolen information and not just one "rogue worker" as was claimed. After all this, Mclaren then got involved with another scandal by lying to the stewards at the Australian GP 2009. Add all this to constant claims by Ron Dennis that McLaren have never imposed team orders on their drivers, while David Coulthard has said that on several occasions he was told that he had to let Hakkinen through and My opinion of Ron Dennis and McLaren is that they are not as honest and principled as they would like people to think. Back on topic: Show Me the evidence that Alonso knew anything about crashgate. Never mind the suspicions, the allegations and unfounded conclussions, never mind what other drivers think really happened, show Me the concrete evidence that proves Alonso guilty of knowing anything about it!. The FIA couldn't find any, none of the other investigators into the incident could find any. Mad Max had this to say about it: He said that without Pat Symonds making a confession, the original hearing might not have convicted the perpetrators of the Crashgate offences. He also said he was confident, if not 100% so, that Fernando Alonso was not in on the plot. He bases this on the fact that the investigators are experienced at examining witnesses and they were convinced Alonso was not lying. (From: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/02/max-mosley-lunch-with-a-retired-president/ ). Still, what would they know about it?.
You spent a whole lot of time in your post arguing against Ron Dennis and arguing that he's a dishonest guy. However the argument you applied to Alonso... "show me one bit of proof that he knew anything about it" ironically applies perfectly to Ron Dennis. Some folks, including Alonso, within the McLaren organization knew that they had Ferrari info. I doubt Ron knew. He wasn't involved to that extent - he was a high level guy and not involved in the details. How about we lay the facts out there.. -It is supposed Ron knew that McLaren had the Ferrari info, however there is no proof of this and review of the facts suggests he did not know. -It is supposed Alonso knew Piquets crash was not accidental, however there is no proof of this and review by experts suggest he was not hiding anything. -It is KNOWN that Alonso knew about the Ferrari data, and failed to come forth. -Furthermore, it is KNOWN that Alonso willingly used that information, and even discussed with other team members what additional information they would like to get from their mole in Ferrari -It is KNOWN that Alonso not only knew of the info, but attempted to blackmail Ron Dennis into breaking the FIA rules and giving him a favored position in the team, or else he would go to the FIA. -It is KNOWN that upon hearing of this, Ron called the FIA and told them the spread of Ferrari info ran deeper than had been previously disclosed. -It is KNOWN that McLaren had no team orders when Lewis and Alonso raced together. Had they used team orders, McLaren would have won WCC and the favored driver would have won WDC. So we have one "maybe he did it" about Ron Dennis. One "maybe he did it" about Alons. And two or three "Yep, we KNOW he did it" blatant rule violations and major ethical transgressions by Alonso. And you would give Alonso a pass for things we KNOW he did that broke FIA rules and were ethically reprehensible, yet you view Ron Dennis with a much stricter view of right and wrong, and are willing to crucify him based on supposition? Supposition that does not even make sense, considering the most likely explanation for Ron's actions are precisely what he said they were - that he wasn't aware of how deep within his organization the stolen data ran. Therefore, your position is clearly biased. It's not about a rational discussion of whether Alonso is a turd. It's about putting forth any rationale necessary to excuse Alonso, while also putting as much blame at Ron's feet as possible. We get it - you don't like McLaren. Unfortunately the facts are such that Ron could possibly be a liar. But we KNOW Alonso is a lying little turd who has no problem blackmailing, breaking FIA rules, lying and threatening to get his way. Alonso = Turd.
I'd rather stick to matter of your definitions of honesty and integrity that you feel Alonso had with that matter instead of getting side tracked. Take your above quotes: You say you were not involved ok, so how can you state "to be fair he was honest". Then he did the right thing when it was a inescapable fact he was in on it from the beginning. I assumed you meant for the sake of the sport, because I could not see another reason for your point. However in this quote you state: Guilt! vengance! v Honesty! integrity! are poles apart in my book, god help anyone in court when your doing jury service. So it seems a contradictory statement you make, then try to divert the issue with Ron Dennis ect. And for crying out loud! you use that scum Mosley interview to back up your point on crashgate, you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel with that.
Yes, and we get it as well, you and your tag team partner Krafty don't like Alonso. Enough already. Hopefully you 2 will have to suffer through a boatload of Ferrari 1-2 finishes this season. Obviously, the Tifosi accept Alonso and all his faults unconditionally, sorry you boys have a hard time with that. F1 isn't a real good place to go looking for integrity, even your golden boy Hamilton has proven to be willing to lie for his team. Everyone in F1 is dishonest it seems, get down off your soapbox man. Ron Dennis= dishonest steaming pile of dung. There, we're even.
Yup you would now all about honesty.. got any garage pic's then Full Name Chris Conti Location Monarch Bay, Calif Personal Ferraris 2006 F430 Wanted Cars None Other Cars Owned 1960 250 GT type 2 cab 1972 365 GTB4 Daytona 1984 BB512 I 1985 288 GTO 1992 512 TR 1999 355 F1 Interests Travel Occupation Happily semi retired
That list is dated, you must have saved it from long ago, how interesting. We've sold most of those cars, I could care less if you or anybody else sees our cars, the interests and occupation are accurate however. Seems you just want to change the subject, seems to be a common pommey trait. I hope Zo's success makes you miserable this season. Cheers mates. Forza Ferrari 2010
Er...: And yet: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3048501.ece In which it is revealed: Although in his letter Whitmarsh does not accept that the car is influenced by Ferrari, this sits uneasily with his offer of a self-imposed moratorium on its development in three areas the quickshift gearbox, the fast-fill fuel intake and the use of CO2 in tyres in a bid to bring the FIAs proceedings against the team to a halt. If these items were not influenced by the stolen information from Ferrari, why did they volunteer to freeze development?. As for the statement: Some folks, including Alonso, within the McLaren organization knew that they had Ferrari info. I doubt Ron knew. He wasn't involved to that extent - he was a high level guy and not involved in the details. It's well known how controlling Ron Dennis is/was at Mclaren. He always made sure he was aware of what was going on in his team. In the "Spygate" case I believe that he initially knew nothing of what was going on between Coughlan and Stepney, and I'm sure he was incredibly upset when he found out. However, I cannot believe that when the scandal initially broke, he didn't launch a very detailed internal investigation into what was going on, to find out the truth for himself and I really cannot believe that everyone at McLaren managed to hide the truth from him. I may not particularily like Ron Dennis, but I will give him credit where it is due and one thing he is, is a stickler for detail. I would expect any investigation launched by RD to be very extensive indeed. I suspect when he found out the truth of just how many people in his team knew about the stolen information, he made an attempt at damage limitation to protect the team he loves. It's at this point I believe he was less than honest with the truth. As for Alonso's part in the scandal, I accept that he did/or was going to make use of the stolen information, his e-mail exchange with De la Rosa confirms this. There was also evidence that it was Alonso who revealed what was going on: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/153158.html As I have said previously, Alonso could have handled the situation better, but at the end of the day, he told the truth and helped reveal one of the most disgraceful episodes in F1 history.
Because at no point did he lie to the FIA when questioned about what went on at McLaren. A good, honest man with integrity can feel guilt for failing to do the right thing at the time and later feel the need to correct his error at the cost of those who did wrong by him. In doing so, he then gets his vengeance. As for: "god help anyone in court when your[sic] doing jury service", I judge people based on the facts presented before Me, not on suspicion, conjecture and unsubstantiated allegations . If they have broken no laws, then they have nothing to fear from Me. One thing I do not do is judge others who have broken no laws, purely because the activities they engage in, do not meet My own moral standards. If you look beyond your venomous hatred of Max Mosley and actually read what was written, you will see I used the article to highlight the fact that both the FIA and all the investgators who looked into the "Crashgate" incident concluded that Alonso did not lie to them and had no previous knowledge or collusion in the events. Mosley actually makes the point that the people involved are quite expert at interviewing people and that it would be very hard for Alonso to fool them. Just because you don't like the person who made the statement doesn't make the statement irrelevant to the discussion. As for: There's no need for personal attacks on other FCHAT members, simply because they don't share your view on things. Whatever peoples personal situations are, it has no relevance to this thread.
Scuderia P1, I'm sorry that you appear to have been dragged into all this and it seems to have gotten somewhat personal, but I do appreciate the support . As I often say in life: "I don't make things complicated, they just get that way all of their own accord!"
Phill, "a good honest man with integrity" would have admitted his role in the spygate affair without the need for immunity from Max. Someone who comes forward only when he knows he will recieve no punishment just gives the impression of being sleazy and bitter. Having said that, I really hope Alonso has learned lessons from all this and has now really become the moral character you think he is. I'm perfectly willing to forgive past deeds. But actions speak louder than words. Until he proves that he is a changed man and not someone who will damage my favorite team, I will view him with suspicion.
I have no problem with Alonso driving for Ferrari, I have said it all along he is probably the best all round driver there is right now, my point is he would do well to keep his mouth shut, are friend Phill thinks different, thats his choice, IMO a open mouth gathers feet. I don't want to change the subject, you just stepped in. bye..
I'll keep them on if it's all the same. I like them, they're limited edition Ferrari blinkers that only the true Tifosi can get!. Very exclusive and they only come in Rossa Corsa with the Scuderia badges embossed. I'm sure McLaren probably have something very similar available. (May even have got the design from Ferrari! )
Expecting Alonso to keep quiet is like expecting the tide not to rise. For better or worse his mouth comes with the rest of him.
That is true, but can you ever really win in the rat race?, or is it a race without a finish?. I find the best thing to do is not to take it all too seriously, life's too short!. I'm not too concerned with his mouth, it's the silly celebrations that bother Me the most!.
Well in that they'll coincide with Ferrari wins might you find it in yourself to forgive his boyish exuberance? I thought you would
Life ah yes short indeed. Which one of these celebrations do you mean.. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Throwing cuddly toys out of the pram I can handle, no problem. The second image though: " NOooo!!...., please stop doing that!, it just looks silly!". Also, when Alonso does that "crab claw" thing in the car after winning a race, am I the only one who hears: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeswZaReE0I&feature=related ?. (please be warned, the music in the link may drive you Mad! [and if you already enjoy the music,there's a good chance you're mad already!, so go ahead and enjoy The Wurzels ] ).
