Maserati 4.9 V8 Engine

To check things I think the old adage of 'eliminate the possibilities and you are left with the answer' applies.
First step: do a coolant pressure test. If no leaks then move on; Second step; do a leak down test;
I believe I finally blew the head gasket big style on my 135mph run over 60 miles! I had no coolant coming out the back pipes; no white smoke; but did have excessive water consumption and overheating when the water was down
Could someone let me know where you can get the valve springs?
Best place for the gaskets? what alternative gaskets there are?
what alternative cranks there are? Is probably cheaper to buy a new crank and shells than the overpriced maser bearings and shells
Best place to buy new rings? what types people recommend ?
Is it best to buy new modern pistons? If so what type?
Who sells this stuff?

We allegedly have a bank of experts here so where is the expert advice!!

Paul
( engine rebuild refugee)
Expecting a telling off from Marc
xxxx

 

Hi all:

Nuts and bolts are not my domain and Walter is much more familiar with that rebuilt 5000GT engine in Germany.

having lunch with two Khamsin owners today, very knowleedgeable so will report tonight or tomorrow.


The top speed run in AM120132 WILL take place in the spring so I will let you know if the crank came out through the hood;-)

best regards,

Marc

 

Hi Marc
This will be an interesting exercise. In 1992 during a Staged Rally I saw 6000+ which is a book figure of 257ks in top. I had a hot Biturbo trying to stay with me much to his surprise
In 1992 the Khamsin was still a fast car. Now....

Graeme

 

3 engines from the 5000 GT had been rebuild incl. a redesigned crank. One was done by CAPRICORN, the other is currently under work in Berlin, supervised by Dr. Hans Doll and the 3rd motor was privately done approx. 6 years ago.

Mick Walsh, editor of Classic & Sportscar drove the car from CAPRICORN and was stunned by its shattering performance, I drove the car with the 3rd engine and was chasing modern Porsche 911 with it on the Autobahn (the sound in the higher revs is unbelieveable!!). Conclusion: you can tweak out something real great things out of the 5000GT-engine, something that Maserati never could do!


Ciao!
Walter

 

Dr. Hans Doll has been doing some extensive upgrades on a 5000 GT engine, including his IMBB block stiffener and upgrading to electronic fuel injection and the addition of a harmonic crankshaft damper. He has improved the oil flow and will be adding oil squirters that cool the underside of the pistons. He is using smaller wrist pins, lighter pistons as well as lighter connecting rods. He expects to see close to 85 horsepower per liter when all is said and done. Hans has not joined this website but I will mention it to him as he has some outstanding information he can pass on that is beneficially to all. Currently most of his comments are listed on the [email protected]. Much of what I am doing to my second Bora engine, engine number two, has been the result of discussions between myself, Hans and my engine mentor, Jim Spitzer.

The latest discussion between Jim and I will be about the possibility of dry sumping engine number two, but mounting the pump inside the sump rather than the usual external mounting. I have decide to move forward with having brand new camshafts made with a modification to the camshaft adjustment mechanism to make it more accessible and therefore easier. The new camshafts will increase the valve lift from 11 mm for the intake to 12.7 mm with a corresponding increase in lift for the exhaust valve. Test indicate that going any higher in lifter dose absolutely nothing for increase air flow. Jim Spitzer's son, David, works in NASCAR and has done some flow tests on the original hemispheric heads as well as the bathtub heads which have greater squish. He also did some test work on a damaged Maserati cylinder head which he used to weld up a single combustion chamber into a more modern shape to see what effect such changes would have on flow and swirl. After all his testing and work we have decided to use a set of the bathtub heads, single plug, with some slight modifications to the combustion chamber and the increased intake valve diameter for engine number two. What was interesting was the improvement in both exhaust and intake air flow when the exhaust port was changed from a round configuration to a "D" configuration. Meaningful increases in flow resulted from that single change so we will be welding up the exhaust ports to change them to the "D" shape configuration. I would very much like to get a set of dual plug bathtub heads as the spark plug location in the single plug heads, either hemi or bathtub, is not ideal. If anyone know of a set for the 4.7-4.9 engines, please let me know.

By the way, the Koni shocks are as Wil says, very expensive, and the ones I am going to use were modified by Truechoice in Ohio so we could bolt them right in. Even with Truechoice's work we need to do some extra work to have them mount correctly. The Versi shocks are an excellent substitute. I would also look at QAL 1 for additional choices.


Elliot Siegel

 

Dr. Hans Doll has been doing some extensive upgrades on a 5000 GT engine, including his IMBB block stiffener and upgrading to electronic fuel injection and the addition of a harmonic crankshaft damper. He has improved the oil flow and will be adding oil squirters that cool the underside of the pistons. He is using smaller wrist pins, lighter pistons as well as lighter connecting rods. He expects to see close to 85 horsepower per liter when all is said and done. Hans has not joined this website but I will mention it to him as he has some outstanding information he can pass on that is beneficially to all. Currently most of his comments are listed on the [email protected]. Much of what I am doing to my second Bora engine, engine number two, has been the result of discussions between myself, Hans and my engine mentor, Jim Spitzer.

The latest discussion between Jim and I will be about the possibility of dry sumping engine number two, but mounting the pump inside the sump rather than the usual external mounting. I have decide to move forward with having brand new camshafts made with a modification to the camshaft adjustment mechanism to make it more accessible and therefore easier. The new camshafts will increase the valve lift from 11 mm for the intake to 12.7 mm with a corresponding increase in lift for the exhaust valve. Test indicate that going any higher in lifter dose absolutely nothing for increase air flow. Jim Spitzer's son, David, works in NASCAR and has done some flow tests on the original hemispheric heads as well as the bathtub heads which have greater squish. He also did some test work on a damaged Maserati cylinder head which he used to weld up a single combustion chamber into a more modern shape to see what effect such changes would have on flow and swirl. After all his testing and work we have decided to use a set of the bathtub heads, single plug, with some slight modifications to the combustion chamber and the increased intake valve diameter for engine number two. What was interesting was the improvement in both exhaust and intake air flow when the exhaust port was changed from a round configuration to a "D" configuration. Meaningful increases in flow resulted from that single change so we will be welding up the exhaust ports to change them to the "D" shape configuration. I would very much like to get a set of dual plug bathtub heads as the spark plug location in the single plug heads, either hemi or bathtub, is not ideal. If anyone know of a set for the 4.7-4.9 engines, please let me know.

By the way, the Koni shocks are as Wil says, very expensive, and the ones I am going to use were modified by Truechoice in Ohio so we could bolt them right in. Even with Truechoice's work we need to do some extra work to have them mount correctly. The Versi shocks are an excellent substitute. I would also look at QAL 1 for additional choices.


Elliot Siegel

 

Elliot,

A few comments: Oil squirters are a very good addition for keeping highly stressed pistons cool.

If the modification you're contemplating is converting to tappets with the shims on top of (instead of under) the tappet, be careful. I have experience with high reving engines with that valve shim set-up spitting the shim out while running full tilt and causing major damage.

I have no affiliation with the company but the name of the shocks I've been using is Varishock. I'm pretty sure QA1s are Chinese made and the bushing eyes are much weaker than on Varishocks. Speaking of the bushings: Competition style self-aligning ball mounts are available also.

Wil

 

Thanks Wil, I was not aware of the chinese connection. I withdraw my recommendation. I am going to modify Bora engine number two for oil squirters. With a hoped for 85 horsepower or more per liter for Bora engine number two, it is the general consensus that such an upgrade is worth the effort. The increase oil flow demands the squirters will make is one of the reasons a dry sump system is being considered.

I know that some who read this thread will consider some or perhaps all of the engine changes to be rather dramatic but it is my hope that some of the information gathered from all of the changes will be of benefit to other Maserati V-8 owners. We will be doing data logging of several functions in the engine. I certainly intend to pass on all of the data that we collect, good and bad, for everyone to use.

Elliot Siegel

 

Elliot,

I know I'll be waiting for up-dates about your progress with great anticipation. Since my engine #2 will be on the shelf for a while, I'm eager to learn from your experimentation. As I said before, most of my experience with these engines is in keeping them running in basically stock form.

Do you already have Dr. Doll's block stiffener? Are you going to use his crank dampener too or are you guys going to adapt a domestically available unit?

Since the car I'm building is such an enormous effort already, I plan to install engine #1 in relatively stock form. I wasn't planning on doing much more than a multi-angle valve job, balancing, polish the crank, new gaskets, seals, bearings, etc and a major tune-up but maybe I can make a few other beneficial but relatively painless upgrades along the way.

Wil

 

Elliot

Thank you for sharing the insight I have always believed dur to financial restraints that the "Stock" 4.9 L was quite down on power and the they have low rev limits is probably testiment to this.

I would love to redo my Khamsin engine and use some D Ghibili heads. I there are some on a block made into a Coffee Table here in Sydney...sad here in

Graeme

 

Elliot,

That is all very interesting, and I too will be watching closely for progress re[ports.

Yes, 65hp/litre is quite poor to today's standards, but if you compare with other engines from the days it is not all that bad.

Of course if you can improve breathing and increase revs the sky is the limit, and 85hp/litre is still quite conservative.

On the topic of placing the engine in a Bora, how do you intend to keep both engine and engine compartment at reasonable temps? More power equates to more heat.

Let's see: lighter crank, rods pistons, ported heads, EFI (throttle bodies I assume) tuned headers, maybe a lighter flywheel/clutch, high lift cams. re-worked combustion chamber design. What is your aim for top RPM?

Wil commented rightly on the shim-in bucket danger of flipping shims with aggressive cams, to which I'd like to add that you make sure there is enough oil-flow to the shims (both supply and flow-off) Also, the shim on top set-up uses a heavy shim, weight where you don't really want it.

Do the heads flow enough coolant to dissipate the extra heat?

I'd love to see a pic of the block stiffener. Is the Maser V-8 unstable in this respect?

This will be an interesting ride, thanks for letting us in on it.

 

I've e-mailed back and forth with Dr. Doll and here is a photo he sent me showing the block stiffener and crank dampener.

According to what he wrote, aluminum blocks loose about 30% stiffness over their first 10 years, whether being used or just sitting on a warehouse shelf, and the fact that the block ends at the crankshaft centerline, instead of being deep skirted, really hurts block rigidity. He tells me he's seen several 4.9 blocks crack at the 2nd main bearing and claims his block stiffener increased rigidity 1200% to 2000%. He says it also acts as a windage tray, decreasing turbulence (which eats power) and oil foaming. Unfortunately, I haven't learned yet if the block stiffener is available for sale and how much it might sell for.

Concerning heat in the back of a Bora: We have Steve Swain's Bora in the shop. Steve had big plans for his car but unfortunately the business down-turn has put the car in a back corner of the shop but Steve had some good ideas which we were in the process of carrying out. To solve the heat problem we eliminated the "dog house" engine cover, the spare tire and all the glass from the rear bonnet. The glass was going to be replaced with louvered plexiglass or Lexan as on the back of an F40 Ferrari. The engine was getting a lot of modifications for more power but was also getting an electric water pump and a large aluminum radiator.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I forgot to ad that Dr. Doll's block stiffener replaces the stock main bearing caps and he tells me its made of a special alloy with a lower expansion rate to maintain bearing tolerances better as the engine gets hot. The fluid damper is to help with the bad crankshaft harmonics but I'm not sure if the engine in the photo has a stock crank or not. Notice that it also has a trigger wheel for electronic engine management.

 

Wil,

That idea I find somewhat strange: If the stiffener has a different expansion rate, you create tensions in the block that weren.t there before. I wonder what the theory behind it could be, but at a glance that seems like a bad idea to me.
So, the stiffener causes the need for a re-bore of the main journals too. Not a biggie, but add it to the cost.

 

If you want the man's e-mail address send me a PM and you can ask him about expansion rates, etc. I only know what he wrote me.

As far as line boring goes: Anything worth doing......

 

Wil,

Hans did some prototype buckets that were very light with the shim on top like the Fiat buckets of old. As Jim Spitzer and myself didn't really buy that conversion and since we really want to wind up the engine, 7250 rpm if it can be done with the changes we are making to keep the crankshaft stable, we are keeping the standard factory shim design in place. For all who asked, the block stiffener is available for sale. Just contact Hans at [email protected] and he will be happy to give you a quote. Remember the Euro has gotten cheaper recently so buy now and buy often! As for the stiffener, it is being cast up by the same company that currently does the BMW blocks and other engine castings. I'm not sure that the difference in the expansion will be significant. We aren't talking about temperatures that get much above 220 degrees and the difference in expansion between the two types of aluminum might be relatively small compared to the overall expansion rate of aluminum. You had best query Hans on his reasoning for his changes. Fell free to do so as he welcomes any questions or feedback.

The picture is of the 5000 GT engine and he was able to add the damper to the existing crankshaft.

I have two of the block stiffeners, one of the original design that was designed to use the factory engine bearings and one that I pushed Hans to design to incorporate smaller main bearings, design number two. We are using standard LS1 main bearings for engine number two, the bigger bore, stroke high horsepower engine, we hope! Remember, with the new crank we are also going to a smaller big end diameter, 1.889" for the connecting rods.

In the Euro Bora, the cross muffler does block air flow from the engine compartment to the outside. It fills up the entire area of the lower grill. I have added a new radiator that is rated for up to 500 horsepower and we are doing the usual tricks of ceramic coating the headers and mufflers as well as wrapping them with heat shielding. Belts and suspenders I guess. I've added an oil cooler equipped with a fan arrangement and a fresh air pickup in the engine compartment to provide additional cooling for the engine. It is an on demand setup that will only operate at elevated engine temperatures. We did this because up to 30 percent of the engine heat is cooled through the oil so every little bit helps. We are also considering bringing in fresh intake air by removing the shark gills at the back of the rear deck lid and putting in scoops with hoses leading to a modified air filter housing. I collected a few of the housings over the years so we can sacrifice one for the modification. It will be interesting to see what happens to the transaxle oil temperature with all of these modifications. We plan to data log it to be able to see what goes on.

I think that the concern with the increased engine temperature is more for heavy track day use and constant high rpm running rather than an everyday problem for us with the changes we are making. An example of this is that the new transaxles permits running 70 mph in sixth gear at 1750 rpm. Obviously, this make for very little stress and low engine operating temperatures for long distance driving. How often will any of us be running at sustained 5000 + rpm with a street car. Wil may be in a different category with his extraordinary sports car that he has created but he is putting the engine in the front which makes for an entirely different situation.

I will try to take picture shortly but if I can't get to it this coming week everyone will have to wait until I get back from L.A. in the middle of the month of March. I'm not very good with computers but I will try to do some postings. Currently the Bora is in primer as we have been doing all of the restoration work in a mad rush to get the car back on the road for this summer.

I hope I am covering everything that is being asked. if not, just remind me and I will be on top of your questions.


Elliot Siegel

 

Yeah, on Stephen's car we were also looking at building air scoops to replace the louvers at the back to bring in cool air to the throttle body(bodies). We were also going to redesign the exhaust system (in stainless steel which keeps heat in better) and of course apply a ceramic coating to it. Nothing wrong with keeping the heat down in the engine compartment of a street car. It helps with induction temp, oil temp, power steering temp, cabin temp, electrical equipment survival, premature rubber deterioration, etc. Air cooling the oil in a mid engine car efficiently is difficult. I have a Setrab oil-to-water cooler in my supercharged 308 that works very well and gets the oil temp up to an ideal level quicker on a cold day.

Stephen's engine was also supposed to get EFI but he and I were still arguing over multiple TWM throttle bodies vs one or two big TBs on a common plenum which I think is better.

 

I have modified my Bora for a set of rear air scoops and tried them out on one of my Nevada Silver State runs. Now mine were pretty ugly looking things being ABS DWV elbows but they did function. Driving the car this way let's you hear the burble of the webers when you're driving the car at moderate speeds with the windows down. That was nice.
I used hoses to force feed the air into the air cleaner horns but I made one big mistake. Everything was fine on my long high speed drive from SF to Ely (race location) in the early evening and then it started to rain lightly. I didn't give it much thought at the time as I was having too good of a time. The car ran fine and I arrived late that night, parked at the hotel and went to bed. The next morning I think you can guess what may have happened.
I couldn't start that car. So we pulled the plugs and yes there was water on them. This was easily remedied but I was thankfull I had not hit a real downpour. I'm not sure what sort of a design would make the water effectively plate-out on a drain mechanism so that it doesn't end up in the engine but clearly something needs to be considered.

On another adventure in my friends Bora we had quite an experience with the lack of air flow out of that engine compartment. We later found out that the AC idler bolt had backed out and oil from the crankcase began getting onto the headers. When cracked open the windows slightly a flood of smoke filled the cabin coming out of the ventilation vents. This was at about 130MPH. The smoke from the headers had traveld forward via the center tunnel and was distributed via the ventilation system. There's some pressure in that engine compartment at speed. and certainly no proper flow.

Later on I got a video tape of the event and there was a reaonably long shot of us going 120-130mph where you could notice something very peculiar about the car. Judging by the gaps between the tops of the tires and the senders it appeared that the car had lifted in the rear by 2-3".

I think you really need a better radiator with these cars and an oil cooler with fresh cold air or an oil-water one if you could ever get the radiator to not be operating on the knifes edge. I have been experimenting with one of those on my race car. I have doubts that you could ever export the trapped heat via radiators sufficiently to make up for that engine under sealed glass design. There is also the issue of rear body lift at speed. Even at moderate driving speeds all that mass of metal (there's a lot of it in the Bora) gradually heat soaks and makes things even worse. I have to think that this car needs to have a way getting a LOT of air flow out of that engine compartment.

Here are a couple of ideas that Stephen and I tossed around a few years ago. There are several examples of various solutions to this issue on cars in Europe. I kind of favor the one that uses black round holed mesh on the back verticle panel of the hatch. But as Stephen has approriately named the files they all ARE a defilement of the original design ... ;>))

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/maserati/photos/album/231779375/pic/240708382/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

Bob S.

 

I just got the new connecting rods for the 5.4 liter Bora engine we are building. The titanium rod from Swanson Precision Machine came in at 495 grams ( 1 lb.1.325 oz.). The new CP piston, complete with wrist pin, rings and retaining clips is 478 grams (1 lb. 0.55 oz.). This is a substantial reduction in reciprocating weight from what the factory installed, approximately 30%. I am still waiting to hear what the new Crower crankshaft will weigh and how much weight we will have removed from the factory flywheel.


Elliot Siegel

 

i remember an e-bay adv. for a bora al. flywheel. bout 4 years ago. someone may have more than one

 

Hi Elliot,

Great info on your engine!

I have looked into reducing weight in the Merak flywheel. The caution is that reducing the weight of any OEM flywheel may cause a danger of it breaking/flying apart if too much material is removed. Once the structural integrity has been compromised and they break apart, it's like a buzzsaw cutting through the car. A much better/safer option is to purchase a reduced weight flywheel that has be designed to function at a specified lower weight. Something to take under consideration.


Ciao,
George

 

George,

That is excellent advise. I will go back and review the program and see what we can source in the aftermarket that is specifically designed for my purposes. I don't want to reduce the weight dramatically, just around 6 or 7 pounds off of the current 33 pounds. I want to improve engine response without severely effecting the drivability of the car. Much os the weight reduction is based on the desire to up the rpm level to around 7250 without having the crankshaft self destruct or blowing up the engine due to other parts not functioning properly, specifically the valves floating. We are pushing hard so that we can get the engine on a dyno and see what all of the changes bring.

Elliot Siegel

 

I have some photos of the new titanium rods and CP pistons that we had made for my 5.4 liter Bora engine under construction. I am using Iphoto as my download off of a Casio camera. I like to share them with the group. Can someone walk me through how to post them in the 4.9 thread? If I am successful, I will have a number of pictures of the engine that I can shown to all of you in the future.


Elliot Siegel

 

Not sure if you just want Iphoto help or general picture posting help for Fchat.
If you're going to be posting a lot of pictures directly on Fchat then you eventually will need to subscribe.


Where you are posting a message look below the text box and onto the next portion of the screen. "Manage Attchments" is where it's done.

If you click on that it will present a selection box of how to upload your photos.
The browse function will help you find the folder on your computer where your pictures are stored.

You will also see the defined size limitations for photos (jpeg).
Resize your photos first on your computer.

I'm not familiar with Iphoto but I see that it's available for the PC & Mac which are you using?

Alternatively you could load them onto a photo website such as photbucket (there are others) and just provide a link here in your post. You can share them on multiple websites that way. But it's more cvomplicated and you have to manage access to that webpage.

Bob S.

 

Hello all,
Good stuff.

I have a modified Bora with heat issues. In addition to the aforementioned radiator/fan/oil cooler mods I am considering a custom louvered plexi for the side and top hatch glass.

Which way should the louvers open to? Should they open forwards for a ram-air effect which would introduce cool air into the bay? Or rearwards for a venturi effect, which would remove hot air from the engine bay?

The statement about pressure gathering in the bay suggest the latter. What is the consensus?