Skip Barber open wheel vs miata school

I've bought gift certificates to do 3-day followed by 2-day advanced schools. I'm middle aged and driving experience is about 12 Porsche club DEs in midwest. I was planning on doing formula cars as I think they would be a blast but starting have some concerns:

1. Many more unsafe, unexperienced yahoos
2. Less ability to instruct (no ride along instructor)
3. Skills/feel not as transferable to fendered cars

Are these real concerns or fairly minor?

Thinking about doing 3 days in one and 2 days in other....?

Benefits of doing 5 days in a row? vs spliting up?

Best tracks to do..Laguna, Road America (drivable), Sebring, Road Atlanta?

Is it worth doing Bertil Roos too? Not thrilled about limited east coast locations. But by the reading other threads seems to be better program as far as ego, price, seat time.

 

To the contrary, the open wheel folks tend to be a bit more serious. Sometimes too serious.

Skippy instructors are no fools. There are no ride alongs in any car.

The open wheel cars are real race cars. As such, they "feel" completely different than any production car modified into a race car. Your butt will be inches off the ground. There will be zero body roll. Brakes are non-ABS and will lock in a heartbeat, but you'll go deeper into turns than you'll ever imagined. Shifting requires double clutching even on upshifts. Heel and toe is mandatory on downshifts. Steering will be point and shoot, until you spin (and you will spin). Because the motor is in the rear, you'll learn to never lift. When in doubt, power on.

The MX-5 car will feel like wearing an old glove. You can under/over steer at will because the car is very predictable. They run on street tires that let you know when you going to spin (not that you'll be able to do anything about it). You will need to master trail braking at the threshold while heel & toe downshifting, but its fun once you do.

That said, the experienced open-wheel guys hate the MX-5 car. They complain of getting seasick from all the body roll. Once you go formula, you'll never go back.

You'll be whipped after 3 days, but just starting to get the hang of it. My recommendation is to do 3 days one month, and 2 days the next.

Laguna, Laguna, Laguna, Laguna -- Whut's not to like? Billiard smooth track. Lots and lots and lots of run outs filed with gravel. Fantastic corners like T2, T6 and T9 + T10. And then, as the day winds down, the fog starts drifting through the gaps. Only in California!

Dale

 

I did the 3 day open wheel at RA about a month before the FCA annual meet. I absolutely loved both the track and the experience. I'm taking the 2 day this summer at Laguana Seca. I agree on spliting them up at least a month apart. The experience spoils you. I drive a 599 and believe me it felt like a boat after spending three days with your ass on the pavement and the front wheels in your field of vision. I know people that have done the two day advanced more than once. I'm in my late 50's and there some in their 70's who have taken these courses. Just watch out for birds, deer etc. Our group is doing almost 130 mph in the straights and one of the guys had a bird bounce off his helmet. No problems but sure was a hell of a thing to see. FYI get the insurance it caps your loss at 6500K if you trash the car. After taking a turn a little to wide, one guy tried to recover and spun into a low retaining wall on the opposite side of the track and they gave him a new ride by the next session. No one was hurt and was the only drama over the three days and it cost him a lot less with the insurance cap. Rule #1 Safety 1st. and have fun second.

 

Go open wheel. Bertil Roos does instructor ride along in a slide car (designed to teach vehicle dynamics) and lead / follow drills.

 

If you haven't, you might give some thought as to what you want to do with your "schooling". Great idea to take the 3-day and an advanced program just to experience driving a race prepped car properly at speed on a road course. As a former Skippy instructor, I've seen many individuals take the programs primarily for the experience and come away absolutely thrilled but with no intention of going further. If this is the case, I'd suggest formula cars - huge kick in the butt. However, if you think you may want to drive formula cars in wheel-to-wheel competition once you've completed the programs, go with the open wheel programs. If "door slammer" competition is more to your liking, go with the Miata. Even for highly experienced drivers, switching from open wheel to closed can be a struggle. If you need to confirm, get in touch with Dario, Sam, A.J., Danica, et al. In any event, have fun and keep the shiny side up!

 

I've done both schools and if I had to choose I would go with Skip Barbar. The cars a lot of fun and I feel you get a little bit more experience of what a race car feels like in handling and braking. I was lucky to have great instructors during my weekend, can't wait to do it again.

 

Someone on here recently stated (in another thread) that Skip Barber has gone to sequential transmissions in the open wheeled cars, and that means no more heel-toe and double-clutching. In addition, Skippy's web site does state that the Miata program allows instructors to ride along for more direct feedback. Can anyone confirm either of these?

 

Last summer our class was first with a sequential gearbox for the three day @ Road America. We were told that they are phasing them out entirely and we got first crack at the sequential. The two day advanced has not used the old gearbox for a number of years . I can't wait to do the two day this summer.

 

Thanks for all the insight and please keep it coming!

Plan on doing open wheel 3 day at Road America then 2 Day in Laguna this fall.

Nice to know about sequential shifters because I'm just ok at heel/toe and have not done double clutching. Besides, allows me more concentration on the may other things like, left foot trail braking.

This may be a novice question, but what is the advantage to double clutch up-shifts or heel-to-toe double clutching?

 

The skills you will learn in either program are pretty transferable, but there is a dramatic difference in feel, brake points, etc. After driving the open wheel cars, everything else you pilot will feel like a pig. I found that the closed wheel cars align closer to what I run at track days and on the street. So, I would do the 3 day Miata program, take a break for several weeks and then go back for the advanced Miata class.

I also recommend running your personal car in driving events, at your home track, before and after the Barber classes. This will provide baseline lap times and allow you to measure your progress.

Laguna is obviously a great track and is typically my first choice. It is also one of the more expensive tracks to rent for private track days, so obtaining time there through a school is a pretty good bargain.

 

Heel and toe and double clutching are two different techniques that can be combined on the downshift. The objective of double clutching is to rev match both the engine and transmission gears prior to the actual upshift or downshift.

Heel toe is a technique which provides maximum deceleration. The heal and toe throttle blip only rev matches the engine, the transmission gears are still moving at the wrong speed which in vintage cars dramatically decreases the lifespan of transmission internals. In cars without synchromesh transmissions, this technique is basically a requirement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_clutch

 

Sequential transmission eliminates the need for double-clutching, but definitely does NOT eliminate the need for heel-and-toe. You have to heel-and-toe all the time or you will discover the meaning of trailing-clutch oversteer pretty quickly.
Yes, all H-patterns are gone. I did formula 3-day at Laguna back in August, and they only used sequentials.

 

Rev-matches the engine? With what?
The blip in heel-and-toes is there to rev-match the engine and transmission, so you do not shock the drive-line and lock up rear tires. Synchronized or non-synchronized transmission, you have to heel-and-toe in performance driving.

By the way, the wikipedia entry you quote is just plain wrong. Get the skip-barber textbook:Going Faster. They explain the details of the mechanics of heel-and-toe there.

Ultimately, if you ever drive a manual transmission on the track, try and not heel-and-toe at speed. See what happens.

 

1. Yahoos less of an issue in open wheel.
2. Lack of an instructor next to you has ups and downs, but in general you will learn more.
3. Small open wheel car exaggerates response of the car as compared to road car. Everything translates, but it happens much slower in the road car, and seems much easier. In other words, the open wheel car is a better training device; master it, and the big brother is a piece of cake.

All seat time is good, but I would do open wheel.

I split my 5 days into two. Learned a bunch the first time, have progressed since then, now looking forward to expanding on that even more.

LS is epic, but a long way to go. Road America is supposed to be good. Road Atlanta has some sketchy walls too close for my comfort.

I am one hour from VIR, so I will be doing Bertil Roos at the end of this month. I loved it, highly recommended.

Warning: once you try an open wheel race car, you may find that you have lost a lot of interest in road cars!

 

I agree with a few of these posts in that you should examine your objectives and what you'd like to take away from the class.

I took the 3 day in formula cars about 10 years ago because I wanted to get a racing license and having little experience, I wanted seat time. While it was a good experience, if I had the choice again I would do the MX5 program. Having only a little experience in street cars, the jump to formula cars was large. During the school you are trying to learn the car, the track and all the techniques while listening to the instructors input and constantly trying to improve and alter your style (it's a lot to handle).

I have a friend who is taking the 3 day in MX5's at LRP in mid April. He wants to focus on the fundamentals of racing (head/toe, racing line, etc) without having to learn a very different and new car configuration. Also, while the sequential is fun, most people won't run one in their track car so 3 days of missed shifts in someone elses H-pattern is probably quite valuable.

Then again, if you're just looking to have a good time and get a new experience, the formula cars will be great for that. Definitely wait a few weeks before doing the two courses. Additionally, I believe the advanced school is almost entirely in the Formula car (it was years back anyway) so that might be your opportunity to get in the single seater.

 

Don't know if I'd do both (e.g., Skippy AND Bertil Roos). One thing Roos does different is minimizes trail braking. Bertil had a philosophy of completing all your braking prior to turn in, then blitz out of it with max speed (e.g., in slow, out fast).

Skip espouses trail braking (in fast, out slow...although that's a misnomer).

Can't say one is right or wrong, but we had a guy that did the Skip school and thought Roos was much better. Having not done both, I can only give you perspective on Roos - I thought it was fantastic, and the staff there is great. Guy Cosmo and Andrew Prendeville were our guest coaches, so that shows you the quality right there.

 

Wow. Just wow. So much misinformation here it's staggering. Where to start ...

How about an easy one.

The wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_clutch) is nearly 100% correct. It's quite a good article. The only error, and it's really a triviality, is that early on it says "double-clutching is ill-advised for sequential gear changes", where what they really mean and should have just said is "for a sequential gearboxes", but more importantly it's not just "ill-advised" it's impossible.

Another problem with this post, a minor one though, is that heel-toe isn't always required. As alluded to briefly in the "technique" section of said Wikipedia article, left foot brakers don't heel-toe but they do still have to blip the throttle.

 

one more easy one before i add my own comments:

uh, absolutely not. most dog ring gearboxes do not require double clutch.

 

If you haven't actually signed up, and I suppose you haven't since it's the weekend, I personally would reconsider Road America. It's a very long track and just IMHO it'd be hard to get enough feedback on your technique since lap times are so long. Also IMHO a low horsepower car like skip barber isn't really suited for that track. I am specifically referring to being in a school situation with those comments, not for racing. If travel to other tracks isn't a problem, I'd opt for elsewhere. Just my 0.02 there.

The guys you're racing will pass you easily while you spend so much time out of gear.

To echo some other good comments here in direct response to your questions:

1. I think you'll find the formula car crowd quite even tempered. What gives you the impression it's full of yahoos?

2. Skip Barber doesn't ride along.

3. The formula car is definitely the way to go. Even if you end up doing tin top racing or just want to improve your HPDE enjoyment, you'll find the skills transfer easily since the formula car is SO much more responsive.

As for 5 days in a row vs 3/2, you didn't say what KIND of porsche you drive in HPDE nor what run group / skill level you have achieved, or what overall physical condition you are in. If you run with "A" or whatever the fast group is called then I'd consider 5 in a row, so you can immediately continue the skills progression. If you are not at the "A" level then probably 3/2 is better as the 3 day will really wipe you out.

The insurance is really a rip off, but again depending on your HPDE experience and your confidence level, it can be worth it to eliminate that worry from the class and be able to focus more on your driving.

Make sure to get a custom seat made on your first day. It will vastly improve the experience for you. Usually they have one of the mechanics making seats for people.

The biggest issue with the whole thing is that you will quickly find that your disposable income is disposed of.

 

I hadn't read this post before recommending the formula car. It's a good perspective, and maybe formula car isn't for everyone.

 

Good catch. In my original post, I was attempting to provide a quick answer to the OPs question, without writing a manifesto about transmissions and/or driving techniques. With that said, you are correct, double clutch shifting in a car with a dog box (aka: crash box) would basically defeat the purpose of the transmission.

 

mousecatcher- thanks for the kind words.

I also meant to recommend looking at Lime Rock for the 3 day school. I took mine there and felt it was very well suited to learning. You can see the majority of corners from single points around the track so it's very easy to watch others and get a better understanding of the track. It's small so you can learn it more quickly and you get more laps, which to me meant more oppty to improve. Importantly, although it's a short track it has high and low speed corners, trail braking, increasing/decreasing radius corners, elevation changes (with blind spots) and varying ranges of camber, allowing you to get many difference experiences.

Keep us informed!

 

[email protected] why the hostile tone? Before you call people out, perhaps you should take the time to understand the subject at hand.

1) Read my post, I never advised against the heel and toe technique.
2) Read your Skip Barber book, your current understanding of the material is incorrect.
3) You may also find it worthwhile to read a few articles about how transmissions work. I believe HowStuffWorks.com and http://www.carbibles.com/transmission_bible.html provide a nice overview of the subject (with detailed diagrams).

 

You mean heel-and-toeing is for staying in the power-band? That's the purpose of heel-and-toe? Are you serious? To stay in the power-band you need to use another advanced technique: it's called down-shifting.

 

Sorry if you took it wrong, but I disagree with you: heel-and-toe is not there for maximum deceleration. You do it to be able to blip the throttle to get the engine speed up (with clutch in) to make sure that the clutch engagement is smooth and does not upset the car.