Take your kid to work

Personally, I think it was pretty cool for the Dad and the Kid.

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/03/03/kid-at-jfk-clears-for-takeoff/

What do you guys think?

 

At first I thought it wasn't a big deal.

But after thinking about it more, it was a stupid thing to do - even if just for the perception. I'm sure the kid was simply repeating what he was told.

How about a surgeon who brings his kid into the operating room and tell his kid "ok, cut here".

 

A Surgeon is highly trained both in decision making and hand skills. ATC is highly trained in decision making only. I can tell a parrot to clear an airplane for landing, it doesn't take skill to say words. It does take skill to cut on someone.

Give the guy a break, assuming he in the communications loop with the kid (as they are when training new ATC/FSS personnel) in order to correct a mistake quickly, the kid was responsible enough to follow directions, and there were no delays or operational accommodations made then who cares? Good on him for getting his kid involved!

 

Ok, the cutting part was a bit much. How about if the hearth transplant guy brings his kid in the room and says "here kid, push these buttons to turn on the heart bypass machine - and turn that dial to 3 and press button D."

Or how about a kid in the cockpit, pressing buttons that his father tells him to push? Still ok?

But hey, if you are right - then let's just open the doors and let all ATC's bring their kids in and play ATC for the day. As long as they follow directions, no problem, eh?

 

I understand why the FAA is pissed, but really?

Like the previous guy said, the kid wasn't making any decisions. He was parroting what his father was telling him. Pilots got a laugh and even applauded the kid for doing a good job. I think he should get a stern warning and sent back to work.

When I was 15 I went on a ride along with a police officer. I worked the radio the whole night. Never knew the cop but he told me everything to say and taught me a little about the job. Dispatch never got pissed and gave me compliments after I got back from a four hour patrol. Now if the cop would have me arrest a suspect, that's going over the top. And just like the kid in the video, both officers and dispatch knew I was on the radio parroting whatever the sgt. told me to say...

 

With all due respect you are sensationalizing......

No it is not appropriate for a doc to bring is kid into the operating room in an active role, as an observer sure! To operate the heart machine takes skill still.

And the issue with a kid in the cockpit is that again operating an airplane takes SKILL

saying words does not take skill.

from listening to the tapes (have you listened to them?) I take away the following things:

-The kid seemed to have a basic knowledge of what he was doing (even if not qualified)
-The dad/adult stepped in on a couple of occasions to immediately correct minor errors (this means he was in the communications loop acting as if he was training a new controller, this is EXACTLY how controllers are trained folks!)
-The kid was well educated enough to speak spanish to an aeromex flight
-None of the controlled pilots seemed concerned or upset
-And frankly he was performing routine duties....


oh and one last point: The final responsibility for flight safety falls on the pilot NOT the controller.

 

oh David, you and your logic and reason...

I do think it was a boneheaded move from a PR standpoint (and certainly the ATC knew that all transmissions are taped!), but I don't think it endangered anyone. Hell, pilots fly drunk and miss airports by hundreds of miles without incident, how much damage can one kid do?

 

Remember this? A kid in the cockpit killed himself and 74 others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

 

Like many here, I first thought 'no big deal...they're all professionals' and wondered if the FAA wasn't being too harsh.

But I think the FAA complaint makes good sense. Their emphasis on controllers minimizing distractions in the workplace is absolutely correct.

We all know about controllers busy chatting with their wives/girlfriends or doing administrative chores leading to accidents.

What's to say that a controller paying extra attention to the kid - whether the controller was the one supervising him or just another controller in the 'booth' - wouldn't let his attention slip, either to listen to the kid or maybe to join in the conversation and congratulations that likely followed.

I know that all involved are professionals and, yes, they can handle distractions (and in this case did). But as you all know, it only takes one lapse in judgment, one distraction, for a mistake to happen. And, as the saying goes: "aviation is .. terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."

I thought the kid was great, and he was no doubt inspired and has a fantastic story to tell. Plus, I know it made the cockpit crew and the ATCs laugh -- and they probably needed to.

However, the ATCs' priority here has to be making sure they do their job. And, in this case that means actively minimizing distractions. As such, the FAA is right to come down hard here.

Does it mean that this ATC should lose his job? That depends on his past record and his performance. But there has to be some reckoning. Both at the individual level and for all ATCs.


From a human standpoint it sucks - no harm was done, everyone laughed! - but the consequences of inattention are so great, that we're compelled to err on the side of caution.

 

I don't think the kid directly endangered anyone either - but that's not the point.

A kid in the operating room pushing buttons probably wouldn't directly be a problem either.

The fact is that is was a stupid move to do this - surely the ATC in question knew that he shouldn't do it. Either it is permissible or not. If it is, then let's has kids do this all the time - right?

I read something tonight that people communicating with aircraft must be licensed. Is this true? If so, was this kid licensed?

Blue - you think this kid had a basic knowledge of what he was doing? Really? He sounds like he is about 7 years old. It's obvious he knows how to speak - but knowing anything about ATC? I doubt it.

 

I'm familiar with that incident but I'll cite the wikipedia article:

The kid was IN THE LEFT SEAT! The captain was unable to jump in and correct the error, what also wasn't mentioned in the summary was that the disconnect modes for the A310 was not immediately clear to the crew so they had partial control of the control surfaces while the autopilot had control of the other half...

There were changes to the A310 line prompted by this issue, as usual there were multiple primary causes.

This post makes many valid and well thought out points that aren't blown out of proportion.

Am I defending the controllers actions as totally appropriate? No, but what I am saying is that it was not totally inappropriate either. Frankly I keep coming back to the fact that this is how controllers are trained! Although it's done at a tower with less traffic, smaller traffic, etc.

I believe that this kid sounded fairly competent in that he had an idea of what he was doing based on the fluidity of the radio traffic. And that the responsible adult was doing everything in his power to be just that.

The guy does need a reprimand but at the end of the day to end this guys career over trying to be a good parent and role model is just as inappropriate. As an acquaintance once told me when I was pondering the concept of karma: "no good deed goes unpunished". Maybe it's naive of me but if we don't actively try to change that than it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.....

 

So, just trying to clarify your position - you believe it is okay for a controller to allow another person - child, friend, spouse, etc - to speak to aircraft as long as it is done in the same way real controllers are trained?

You put lot of faith in the knowledge of this kid. To me, he sounds like he is about 7 years old - and thus probably doesn't have the knowledge you think. How old do you think this kid is?

Again, I don't really think that lives were at risk here - but maybe they were. Either way, the whole thing is so obviously inappropriate and unprofessional that I can't understand how anyone can come close to justifying it as being okay. The kid should not have even been in the control tower at all.

 

Yes, obviously it shouldn't be on a regular basis and such but if I were in that guys shoes I might have done the same thing (watch as bubbles starts attacking me personally here)

7 or 8. but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what's going on. At that age he's capable of undestanding what's going on in simple terms and if couched properly he has the cognitive ability to wrap his brain around it. this goes doubly so if he's into aviation and get's excited about it.

Unprofessional? Yes. Inappropriate? Debatable

 

Seriously? Whomever you think is watching will be watching for a long time...

 

Personally, I have far less of a problem with a supervised kid repeating directions to a plane on the ground, than I do with underpaid pilots flying those little commuter planes.

 

A good controller can do his job in his sleep, and many do... I've always thought that bad things happen when controllers are bored or not paying attention, more that kind of situation than when somebody is paying attention.

In this case the controller was probably actually paying more attention to the job since he wanted to make sure he absolutely didn't screw up when the kid was in there.

Yes it was "unprofessional", but I don't think there was a major safety issue here.

The FAA needs to get over it, and maybe slap the guy on the wrist. Stupid, yes, unsafe, not really.

Besides, we need more controllers, they are overworked, and it can be a tough job. The FAA needs to be encouraging kids to want to do the job, rather than banning the practice, maybe they could create a supervised environment where they could let kids learn and get excited about it as a career path.

 

+1000

A great recruitment tool. How many kids got to experience something 'cool' and then gunned for it when they were of age? Quite a few.

The FAA needs to recruit people into this profession given the stress and everything that comes with it.

I thought it was great, so did the pilots, and comparing the kid being a parrot to someone sitting at the controls of a live airliner (one in flight) isn't remotely close. People will beat this to death all over the world, comparing it to some other mythical event (e.g. "what if I told my kid to sit on my lap and drive a tractor/trailer").

 

I couldnt have said it better.
Plus there is the fact that when im flying and holding short of a runway I can predict what ATC is going to tell me to do and Im ready.
Aviation as a career field is dwindling, fewer and fewer people are signing up to be pilots or ATC we need all the people we can get (all of the baby boomers will be in mandatory retirement with in 10-15 years). I have had the chance to be in a number of ATC facilities and work alongside a number of Controllers (as a liaison to UND) and as Blue Hart said ATC trains with a supervisor on the radio watching the new guy and jumps in as soon as the new guy ultimately messes up. It happens all the time and no accidents result.
Should he have done it: thats the debate
Was it unprofessional: absolutely
Was it dangerous: absolutely not