Hi Ric well done the car tooks teriffic, The colour is interesting and sorry if I missed the colour part of the thread, is it the Maserati Rubina colour? Regards Graeme
Thanks Graeme, No, it's not Rubino as there is no metallic in the paint. Richard Solomon had the car restored when he owned it (about 6 years ago) and I had called him to talk about it before I bought it in December. I asked him what the color was and he wasn't sure but thought it was from a Qport of the era. I guess any touch up needed will have to be done thru a color matching spectrophotometer system. Here's another picture where you can tell there's no metallic in the paint. Rick . . . . Image Unavailable, Please Login
Gabriel, and other There are other aspects of painting that seldom are mentioned in connection with cars, and then often misunderstood. I happen to know a little about this since my interest in these cars came from sculpture. It relates to why people think my car is newly washed in spite it very seldom is. It has to do with lustre, which is even more complex than hue. Some aspect of it can be put into figures (e.g. glossiness from matt to full gloss), but far from all and definitely not the entirety. But even with colour, the used measures are problematic if you dont have the original receipt. What colour code do you give a paint that looks almost blue in one environment and almost green in another? If a paint mixture that looks correctly blue-green in some standardised light, it may not look correctly green-blue in another. The blue colour of the car in the foreground in contrast always looks about the same. It depends on the pigment composition. To match at more than one light wavelength of course is a step in the correct direction, but I dont know how they do at the paint manufacturers laboratories, but clear differences exist. At the paint shops they of course have their practical skills and experience. I thought more about these matter when my car had just been re-sprayed about five years ago. In some way it then looked better than before although in a technical sense the paint surface for modern paints often are technically less perfect, e.g. not so dead flat as in the solvent days. If too much it is called orange peel. So I started to look around at other cars indoor and outdoor. Those I thought look extra fine and glossy I took a closer look at (at some decimetres or so), and nearly always I found that the more uneven the paint surface was in a technical sense the better the car looked at a distance. The paint looked better although it was technically worse (even at all those test plates made under ideal conditions and that I had inspected so closely). This has effect of course since long been known and used in sculpture, e.g. in bronze sculpture. When, after it has been founded a series of treatments take with by different specialists. Firstly, various mechanical treatments called chasing, which initially means sawing away foundry channel, and finally finishing with chemical treatment (patination). Certain areas can then be treated with rasps and files or scraped to get the correct texture, while other (e.g. skin areas) may be blown with ball hammers of different size. A master of this was Donatello in the 15th century but already the ancients knew it well, and corresponding of course exists in stone and wood sculpture. In so-called impressionistic sculpture (Rodin, etc.) the focusing of the surface was exaggerated (and carried out already in the clay), according to my opinion at the expense of the basic sculptural qualities form and volume distribution. Returning to the small indents made with the hammer its effect was to make reflections coming from different angles, which results in a kind of glittering or dazzling effect. In addition it makes it difficult for the eye to focus exactly on the surface. A perfect dead smooth surface just looks dead and boring. A correctly chased surface gives a more vibrant and living impression. In addition it softens the boundaries of reflections from the surrounding that might be irrelevant and therefore disturbing. Another technique that was a reality earlier was glazing, e.g. for horse carriages but also in the early car days with bespoke bodies. That is, the technique of instead of painting in one covering layer, apply the paint many thin transparent layers upon each other until the covering is total, but let them dry between (eventually rubbing it down a bit to remove imperfections). The effect of these internal boundaries is to cause internal reflections back from different depths. At reflections light becomes polarised and phase shifted relative each other. When light from different levels with different phases and polarization interfere with light reflected from other internal layer the result is a shimmering effect. To put this effect into figures is difficult. This technique disappeared from the car trade since it was too time-consuming and costly. With the modern even more timesaving wet-in-wet spraying techniques these internal boundaries never have a chance to form because the entire paint forms a common sea, and such lazing effect can no longer occur. This technique has also been consciously used in the arts since long (but more systematically in modern times by e.g. by Baertling). Reproductions of such painting with the exact colours but sprayed on a smooth under-surface have been made, but it give a boring impression compared to the vivid and joyous impression of the originals. To this comes the texture of the canvas that plays the same role as hammer indents in the chasing of the sculpture surface. All this chasing, glazing, etc. ends up in qualitative differences that all person with a normal visual system recognises. Most of us do not know from where it comes, or have words for it, but just thinks it looks fine. The most inventive side of the car branch regarding paints the last 50 years or so seems to have been in custom cars and hot rods, but they still stay beneath the surface and aim at as smooth and glossy surface as possible. There are also some other more creative attempts like Sonya Delaunays car in the 1920s and Hervé Polain's commissions of painted BMW cars in the 1980s, but they still keep below the surface. With computerized methods such ideas could of course be utilized more creatively, but although the cars with this may look funnier it seems more to concern advertising that rather irrelevantly superposes the graphics than interplaying with the design. So there seems to be vast field of integrating form, colour and texture already at the design stage. Today this is treated more separately. The sculpture branch in this surface treatment field has some thousands year advance, so the car industry and paint still manufacturer have much to learn (and get all of us accustomed to such qualities). In the old days various types with different material and different colours schemes were used. What remains of this today when even two-tone is out-of-fashion is about the canvas tops in convertibles that deviate from the general glossiness, and there is at least one Khamsin with this (and according to my taste a very good-looking car). Everywhere else we accept such effects and like it. No one (or extremely few) would like the interior of his home to be as glossy as his car. For practical reasons we can stand it for shorter periods in our bathrooms, but even inside of our glossy cars we would not stand it. The surface texture also has more practical implications. When a perfect smooth surface with time loses its gloss (by dirt or age) it just looks dull, but a textured surface keeps the glittering effect and people thinks it is newly washed although it isnt. In addition inevitable imperfections, scratches corrections does not show up so clearly, and need not be a catastrophe. The car on the whole looks better and you dont need to be so afraid of using it or that someone might cough upon it. I have been told that photographers use an atomiser to spray the car with water droplets to make it look finer. The unevenesses in paint surface serve like permanent inverted droplets. Therefore the modern paint techniques that results in some texture according to my view is a step in the right direction. I dont know if controlled surface textures is on the paint manufacturers agenda, perhaps more sagging problems and similar in automated paint processes. Of course there is a limit when dirt start to accumulate due to surface roughness and that not ought to be passed, but before this happens much remains to be done that affects the visual appearance of the car. To summarise: Perfect is not always perfect. This was perhaps a bit off this threads topic, but anyhow is what may come to mind when one has to repaint an old Khamsin. However, returning to your original question I think Meraks look good in blue. And from a sculptural point of view its design according to my taste is much better than Boras, which has too much bulk in the back. Those who have driven both cars also say that the Merak is more agile. Not to forget that it is also equipped with Alfieris engine masterpiece, which is much more modern and original the old V8 in the Khamsin. Corrected for the small (but disastrous) design mistakes (stronger cam chain tensioner, electronic distribution, etc.) it seems to be a pearl. It would have been interesting to have seen it developed into a V8. The Merak (and SM) engine is also texturally more advanced in that the technically meaningless wrinkle paint finally has been skipped a stupid fashion that only makes it more difficult to be see from where e.g. leaks come. Greetings Ulf Image Unavailable, Please Login
Ulf: that is amazing, very interesting information, thank you for posting. News: 204 is sold some parts will be available from new owner John Berg. 10 of you, some who post here some who don't, expressed an interest in parts from the written off Khamsin AM120204 in recent weeks. I apologize for the lack of news but now I at last have information for you. When I submitted the list to Michel the owner of 204 he thought about it and came back to me saying he did not have the time and that it had to be all or nothing. He has had up to sixty cars and is now downsizing and selling cars and buildings. He wanted to do a 450S replica with it but realized he did not have time, in fact his 300S replica took seven years. I myself do not have the time, space or truck to go get these parts bring them home and ship them so the only solution was to sell the whole car and then the new owner could resell some parts to the others on the list. This was easy as only one person in Europe expressed an interest in doing so and coming down to pick it up: John Berg. He and the car already arrived back home in Denmark last night! He decided very quickly and came down Thursday 1300 kms from Denmark to my part of France, then Friday morning we went to Grenoble a further 230kms met with Michel, John examined eveything we had a great lunch with another ex Khamsin owner and also an ex Bora owner and then we loaded everything in John's enclosed trailer, got back at my place at midnight and John left at 5.30am! He is incredibly energetic and after these more than 3000kms in total is now at home with all of 204. Only a few parts were missing due to the crash or being previously sold or missing from the previous owners warehouse (before Michel) but 95, 97% is there. Voilà. So John will now in the next few days or weeks quickly decide what he can sell. He is a really good guy, a super enthusiast -when he finishes restoring his Khamsin it will be really perfect- and he wants to help other Khamsin owners so he is not going to selfishly keep everything. He has the list and I will put him in touch with those of you who wanted parts (I saw that Rick solved his hose problem already). I will post a couple of photos later on. Even though my back is hurting from lifting boxes and parts -do you have any idea how heavy a door is?! Ridiculous must be built in lead!- I am very happy that 204 will now be a useful "organ donor" to other Khamsins. Again I have no intention of becoming a parts seller but I felt this was an important and valid thing to do which fits perfectly with the aim of my Khamsin Registry: preserve and improve the breed! best regards, Marc
Ulf, I enjoyed immensely reading your essay on the intricacies of surfaces and colors. Thanks for posting your thoughts and experiences on this subject. Looking at cars through the lens of a sculptor makes perfect sense - especially for a car like the Khamsin - but not all of us have, obviously, developed a capability for doing that. Being reasonably interested in design, I tend to focus on forms and shapes (leaving the functional aspects aside for now....), but have not devoted much thought to the qualities of surfaces as such. Also, like probably many others, I have tended to equate lustre with gloss; I will keep those two apart from now on... Cheers, Gabriel
Ulf, The paint samples for the Khamsin show a color called Rosso Cordoba and it doesn't say Met. yet the list from the Khamsin Registry says Rosso Cordoba Met. Does the sample you have actually have any metallic in it. If not that could be the color that's on my car. Thx, Rick . . . .
Hi Rick... I looked at the Khamsin paint samples I have (the small booklet) and Rosso Cordoba has metalic in it... It is an 'Italver-Pittsburgh Paints' color with code 2.463.470... Look forward to seeing your Khamsin soon... Mike D.
Hey Mike, The back of the samples that Ulf showed didn't say metallic on the Rosso Cordoba but has the same number yours has. Oh well, back to the drawing (painting) board. Oh, by the way, I received my calendar last week - very well done! Rick . . . .
I don't recall seeing any posts on this, but perhaps there were..... I don't want to get into a discussion on motor oil as this has been beaten to death in many forums... That being said, what fluids (brand, name, etc...) are some of you using in these particular areas? 1. Gearbox 2. Differential 3. Steering Governor The manual calls for SAE 10W/50 for the Steering Governor, SAE 80 for the Gearbox, and MP/S SAE 90 for the Differential... What is MP/S? Also, I think the volumes listed in the manual are wrong... It shows 1.8 Liters for the gearbox, 1.4 Liters for the Differential, and .1 Liter for the Steering Governor... These seem high, although I have no idea for the Steering Governor....What's the collective experience on this? It seems a lot of my questions lately have to do with the Steering Governor... Perhaps I'm getting obsessed with this piece of equipment... Mike D
Hi Mike Your obsession is justified so dont be to concerned. The Steering Governor is an iteresting little device. it is basically you standard cetifugal fly weight goveren which acts on a spindle valve. your thoughts about oil quantity are right I have found that it will overflow through the breather but you can never tell how much is in there as there is only the breather tio fill it. I put a small bit in as away of insurance. I had my overhauled and when I took it out only a small amount came out and it was less then 100mils. others have found them with nothing in it. I know this isnt a definitive answer but what I have found. I use a Castrol Syntrax 75W 09 sythetic in the gearbox as recommended by ZF after they rebuilt it. there is a filler on the LH side to fill the gear box. Amout full who knows it right when it overflows when filled with the car level same with the diff. The Diff rebouild peolpe only recomented a mineral oil. one more thing about the gearbox, check the condition of the speedo cable cover if it cracked any where almost to the top of the engine it will leak gearbox oil as it pumps up the cable!!! I will be interested in others experience. Cheers Graeme
For the diff, the only thing that's important other than to use the SAE90 spec is that it has a friction modifyer for the LSD.
Mike, I'm about ready to do the fluid change too and have been doing a little research on the subject. Here's an explanation of MP/S I found on the Agip website. "Rotra MP/S is a special gear oil with modified EP (extreme pressure) characteristics. It is particularly recommended for lubrication of limited-slip differentials and associated hypoid gears, subjected to high dynamic loads at high sliding speeds between gear teeth and high temperature. In General Rotra MP/S is suitable for those transmissions where manufacturers suggest lubricants having anti-slip properies"
Thank you all so much for the info so far... Graeme... Any more details you have on your governor removal/re-installation is greatly appreciated... Was it difficult to get to the breather to add fluid? Rick... Let me know what you end up using for fluids... I may follow suit and if we both ruin something, hey, who knows, maybe we can get a multi-car discount on the repairs!... I have attached a photo of the underside of my car... Things don't look so good under there... What's that tube sticking out of the slave clutch rubber cover? I haven't really checked where it's supposed to attach to, does anybody know? There's even some green fluid dripping around down there! May need to rebuild that slave clutch? I was also interested in the info on the speedo cable... I will take a closer look at that, as there seems to be alot of oil dripping around down there... I had always assumed it was the rear main seal... I had heard that these were notoriously prone to leaking and the only way to repair was engine out... Comments? Thanks again for all the info and keep it coming! Mike D. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Mike, I just went thru the same thing. I had a leak that looked like it came from the slave cylinder. Here's what I found. The slave cylinder has 2 lines attached to it. A rubber feed line and a little plastic line that fits into a rubber boot on the cylinder. The rubber line goes up to a tee and then up to the LHM reservoir the plastic line goes directly to the reservoir and inserts into the rubber neck with the other "return" lines. The rubber lines on my car were age cracked and leaking but because of their positioning it made it look like the slave cylinder was leaking. Afer replacing the rubber lines the leaks around the slave cylinder disappeared. Rick . . . .
For those of you interested, all details on the following website: www.lsk.co.uk A MASERATI KHAMSIN 4930cc two door coupé, green Reg No. C778 UNX Chassis No. & Engine No. AM120419 Recorded Mileage 12,688 First registered 01/08/1985 Notes: Owned since new by the vendor, car without its' dashboard and instrumentation although most parts appear to still be with the car. Khamsin production officially ceased in 1982, although this example was first registered in 1985. Estimate £10000 - 15000 Pictures on this link: http://data.bidmaster.co.uk/lsk/documents/AUTOMOBILESDOC_006.pdf Good luck to all! Pascal
Hello Pascal: Long time no hear! Yes saw this two days ago (thanks to Paul in the US): very very satisfying to see one emerge from complete obscurity like that: the quintessential barnfind: excellent! I had absolutely nothing on AM120419 before, not even Andy Heywood had anything about it. Interesting color but the way the car sits with the dash missing and the general air of neglect show that the late owner was very disorganized and uncommited to the cars...to be polite. But it is a five speed with low miles, one of the last cars so extremely worthy of being reawakened like sleeping beauty....but it will take a lot of work. Still the auction estimate is cheap and in England Khamsin prices can be unpredictable. All I wish for is that it finds a good home with somone really committed to restoring it and with the patience and means to do so. The end result can be really spectacular. best regards, Marc
I imagine there would be a lot more interest if it was LHD. What a strange story on that one. Was it cannibalized or just taken apart for some reason and never put back together? The low corrosion aspects of the LHM will be a real asset in resurrecting this car. The Longchamp is another interesting case. Bob S.
Hi Mark, Yep I agree, not a bad looking colour shows well on the lines of the car. Registration is strange as it's quite a late and is three years after my car, which was allegedly the last year Khamsin's were registered in the UK, i.e. 1982. So another one for the books. It's also seven chassis numbers from mine, maybe it was delivered to another market before being imported into the UK. That could explain the late registration as I've seen some cars being given a reg number of the year they came into the country. Would be a great project to take on if all the dismantled bits were with it, wheel trims interior and such. Some could be sourced but others may prove difficult or may have to be re-manufactured. Personally price guide is a bit high, but then again I'm always after good deals. I wonder what the metal is like, if it's been inside hopefully should be good. Do you think my wife would understand if another Khamsin were to appear on the drive? Bal
Here's the link to the article in the Daily Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/7350226/Luxury-car-fleet-found-gathering-dust-in-bored-owners-Suffolk-barn.html It shows the Jensen a little too, Pascal. I spoke to Cozza this afternoon and he was amazed at the late registration. It just means it sat as unsold inventory before the "bored collector" bought it....unles as you seem to say Bal, cars get a registration number plate as soon as they enter the UK? Never quite understood the British system. In Florida I paid 50$ to have the number plate I wanted, in England it is a gazillon Pounds to have something spelt wrong! 419 has been inside for years as is all too sadly apparent and the parts are either there or at a garage where he had work done, they could be lost or there might be bills to settle there though lack of money was not an issue apparently just lack of organisation. As to your wife's reaction I wouldn't know, never had the pleasure of meeting her but I suppose she might not be too pleased: but then again you can ask John Berg here what his wife said when he brought 204 home: apparently she did not mind! best regards, Marc
Hi Marc, I think I may be pushing it a little with the wife as I already have 2 Maseratis. But 419 looks to be a nice combination of colour and interior. It could have been left unsold for a while, but the system in the UK is usually quite strict. Cars are usually allocated date related registrations when they are imported. Sometimes that has gone wrong and they allocate the plate on the year it entered the country. The advert says he owned it from new, which if true then means it could have sat as stock somewhere. Again that may be the case and the importers/ dealers didn't get round to registering the car until they had a buyer. Being a specialist car that could be the true as with the more normal cars the dealers would probably register cars as they came in ready to satisfy customer orders etc. As you say Marc any missing items may be the problem, unless the likes of MIE etc had enough items around. Weird that the dash is all apart, wonder why electrics/ ventilation system issues? I notice that the centre clocks also seem to be out of the car. The odometer must be there to indicate the mileage on the description, but why remove wheel trims etc. The guy seems to have had more money than enthusiasm. Will be very interested in the results hope she gos to a good home. Bal
Hi Bal: Yes I think it just sat unsold and that he ended up buying it...he really does not come across as very enthusiastic that's for sure. It is one of the last RHD cars built, very low miles, has an interesting color scheme and deserves to find a good home. I will follow what happens with the auction next weekend. Ironically the only Englishman I know looking for one now wants a...left hand drive car and a Frenchman (from a country where of course cars are left hand drive) told me he may take a shot at the auction. best regards, Marc
