Interested by a 1984 400i for sale

Hi all,

I'm new to this very interesting forum. English is not my first language, so please excuse any mistake.

Thinking about a 400 for years now, I'm now looking for one to buy. I searched on the net and I found one for sale in California. I live in Montreal, Canada (Quebec province), this is very, very far, and before possibly planning a trip, I'm searching for someone in the Los Angeles area willing to inspect the car, give me his opinion and take a lot of pictures.

The car is at "Auto Sport International". Here is the link: http://www.autosportint.com/
The address is 45 Oldsfield, Irvine CA 92168.

The website pictures show a pretty nice car. I'm not so enthusiast about the red color for a 400, but the overall condition seems good so I would want to know more.

So, if somebody wants to go and see this car, I would appreciate.

Thank you.

Stéphane

 

Hello, welcome to the FChat forums. If you're looking for a 400 I would strongly recommend you talk to Brett. He posts here under the name brettski. Here is a link to his web page. I, and many others have all had great experiences in dealing with him.

http://www.granturismo.ca/

 

Stephane, from the photos, the car looks quite tidy and clean. Believe it or not, "in the metal," the car actually looks quite nice in red. Initially, I was adverse to red, too, but was quickly won over once I actually saw the car--You'll be surprised. I would, however, take Jim's advice and speak with Brett before you make a decision to buy any 365/400. He will provide you with honest advice and guidance and is a great source of information, to say the least. Happy hunting....

 

Welcome to FChat and I hope you enjoy the camaraderie here among the 365/400/400i/412 enthusiasts!

I'll check my database to see if anything is in there. Other than that, the car looks pretty nice but the details of the service history and actual mechanical condition will determine its true value.

The asking price of $39,988 is quite high for any automatic. Everything, I mean absolutely everything, would need to be top notch on that car and even then it probably would be a recent record for an automatic. I'm not saying that they aren't worth that but market values say otherwise.

 

wow, is that ever nice to wake up to...it really means the world to me guys...thanks.

we really should talk Stephane...
i have several options that might interest you, including a number that aren't listed on my site.
i have a mix of 365's/400's/400i's, 5-speeds and automatics, carbs and injectors.
some have all new motors and gearboxes, some have just had valve adjustments and 'majors'...
but they all come fully serviced...and we're a little closer to home than California.
and on that note, i'm curious to know why you'd want a Cali car with all of it's emissions junk ?
you're not subject to smog testing on anything of this vintage...
wouldn't you prefer something in 'Euro' spec, as it was intended ?


brett, 705-435-1990

 

The California car is 51895 and this has pretty much been for sale since 2003.

In early 2003 it was offered out of Indiana and since late 2003 has been offered at various spots in southern California ranging from San Diego to LA and in between. Described as having a Nebraska title in 2003.

Sometimes from a dealer, sometimes on eBay. The eBay seller has been the same name and phone number at least three separate times during that period, at one point saying that he has owned the car for 8 years.

In 2003 the car was shown with 16" Gotti wheels but now it looks as though it is back on TRX wheels and tires.

During the past seven years, the odometer has advanced by less than 1,000 miles, so it apparently has been sitting quite a bit.

I suspect that the main reason that this car has never sold is because the seller has an unrealistically high price on it. That and the fact that it probably will need a few thousand dollars in recommissioning unless it has had frequent oil, coolant and brake fluid changes even thought not being driven and while it has been basking in a garage somewhere.

 

Thank you very much for all your replies.

Brett, I don't really "want" a California car but I found this one and it seems to be what I'm looking for, meaning a very nice, low mileage, original and "untouched" car. Buying a car so far away would be fur sure complicated and costly, so of course a canadian car would be far better. Email me details about the 400i's you have. I don't mind so much about automatic or manual trans, but I'd prefer injection to carbs.

After a few hours reading posts here, I understood that the asking price is high. If this price can't drop, I won't go any further. I'm waiting for more pictures from the seller and I'll see.

Ashman, what you know about this car is of course very interesting. I understood from the seller that the car didn't move a lot for years. It probably means that no servicing has been done for years also.

Gregg, about the red color, you're certainly right. Anyways, I probably won't have so much choice about the color. This is not my first concern, I want a good car first.

Stéphane

 

Stephane,

Be careful when putting priority on 'untouched' and 'low mileage'. First, it is very possible that the mileage is not correct as the speedometer (and odometer) were often replaced when the cars were imported for USA use (to convert from KPH to MPH). Second, even if the mileage is original, an 'untouched' car that is 25+ years old is very risky. All rubber parts may need to be replaced and other parts need to be checked carefully. A fully serviced car which has been recently used may be a better option.

The car you are looking at is at the top end of the price range; make sure you have the car very carefully checked with a professional pre-purchase inspection to ensure you will not be spending an extra $10k on repairs after you purchase the car.

Good luck!

Art S.

 

At that price, everything on the car should be perfect. $39,900 is at the high end of what any 400s have traded at since I bought mine in 2003. Most red 400s were resprayed to that color as few left the factory that way. Most of that car looks relatively unmolested. That is a good sign. If you are serious about a Ferrari and have the cash, buyers ought to have bargaining power right now. -sc

 

When I say "untouched" I mean serviced, and serviced correctly, of course. I just want to avoid bad service. For example, having a overhauled engine seems great but what has been done exactly? Who did it? Sellers always say which parts they replaced but they are more silent about parts they didn't replace and why. They sometimes replace cheap or easy parts and don't even look at the other ones. So, if possible, I'm looking for a car that never had any major intervention, and doesn't need any.

I read that 400's were sometimes not serviced or had minimal service, because owners didn't have the money. This is the kind of car I want to avoid too.

I may never find what I'm looking for, or it may be over my budget ;-)

What's sure for this particular car is that the price must drop. I read that $35K is the price for a very nice 400i. Is it less than that for an automatic?

Stéphane

 

Unless I had a PPI in my hand saying the car was clean, and then either verified that myself with a personal inspection or had a trusted friend go through it carefully with lots of photos, $35k is high money for a 84 400i.

Some days there appears to be a price premium on 5 speeds, other days there is not.
Given the 400 market is not particularly wide, the limited number of trades makes it hard
to verify how much of that is unique to the car or the market on that day or week.

-sc

 

I know a little bit about classis cars, but not about Ferrari's. I'm working on restoring a Citroen SM for 7 years now and I have another SM in good condition. Many of you certainly don't know what is a Citroen SM. This is a fantastic but very complicated car, requiring a lot of service, many parts are not available any more as new and the other ones are quite expensive. The engine comes from Maserati, this is part of the explanation, the other part comes from the Citroen hydraulic system, which causes headaches on a regular basis

I think a 400 won't be as complicated as a SM but parts will be more expensive for sure. Can you find all parts? Are used parts available if not available as new?

For those who are interested, I made a website to tell my classis car stories: http://stephane.patchou.com/home.htm

Stéphane

 

you guys are making want to sell my 400i...lets say it is a clean no problem car, 35k still to high? auto or not, thats just ridiculous. I think whats going on here is the market is getting flodded with crap cars for cheap money, then when one clean one comes along all i hear is it cost to much. Sorry guys just sticking up for the underdog!!

 

Oh we know of the SM. The one in "good condition" looks to be in fantastic shape, much nicer than any SM I've seen. Congrats on it.

 

Thanks 412Fan, and you're right, my second SM is more than just in good condition. For example, the interior of this car is just gorgeous.

Back to the 400. ArtS you were saying that the speedometer was replaced when the car was imported into the US. This is a part of the story I don't know. Please tell me more: 400's were not sold new in the US? Owners imported them or Ferrari dealers... or others?

Bret, you were saying that US cars have "emission junks", can you please tell me more about that? What's the difference between US and Euro specs? US cars have an emission controling device (like the SM by the way)?

Thanks.

 

I can help some here. The 400 was never officially imported to the US. There were "gray import" cars (i.e. imported outside the official dealer network) that were made US legal by adding emission control equipment (EPA) and other modifications to make it DOT legal (adding side repeaters for the turn signal, amongst other things).

 

I had a 1972 5-speed SM.
The 400 engine's valve chain drive is much better than the SM. On the SM you have three timing chains and you have to manually tension the secondary chains every 2,000 miles and one bank has the "load" side on the tensioner!. On the 400 there is only one chain that has a spring loaded tensioner on the "slack" side, that you only have to load the spring every 10,000 miles. I know the Ferrari Daytona has a much better cam drive than the 400 so please, no need to "remind" me.
To retorque the head on the 400 is much worse than the Maser engine in the SM.
Both have four cams and shim adjust valves.
It is a toss up on which has the more difficult to get at water pump. I pulled the engine on both cars to service the engine.
Parts seem to be more plentiful for the Ferrari.
The Engine is the only real complicated part on the 400 compared to the SM and only becouse there is a lot of it.

Nothing will equal the ride quality of the SM, except maybe R.R.

I liked the SM and was a little disapointed with the engine.

 

The SM chain drive is its main weakness, so I'm happy to hear that the 400 is better on this point ;-) Though, tensionners look almost identical on both cars, as I saw on pictures on another post here.

 

Stephane, You are comparing the Primary chain drive tensioner (Crankshaft to intermediate shaft) of the SM engine to the one chain/tensoner of the 400 engine, yes they are very much the same. but is not the weak point of the SM engine the secondary chains ( intermediate shaft to intake and exhoust cam) tensioners? The one that you have to adjust between the cams every 2,000 miles? and one bank pulls on the tensioner before it gets to the cams and the slack side has no damping(sp)! I know of SM/Merak engines that have ran strong for over 100,000 miles but the owners were careful with maintence. If you are one of those type of owners (you sound like you are) a Ferrari engine will not be trouble for you. Join our ranks!

 

Yes, the primary chain tensionner sometimes brake on SMs on which the primary chain has not been replaced as often as it should (60 000 Km I believe). By being too lose, the chain hits the tensionner and/or limiter, and causes breakage, often on both tensionner and limiter.

The secondary tensionners are not really problematic, as far as I know. I did tension the secondary chains myself once, this is quite easy using a torque wrench. This is the lack of maintenance that causes trouble here. That's the first time I hear about a slack side. Tensionning the chains is not done for both sides with the same engine position. One side uses cylinder 1 as reference and the other one uses cylinder 6, if I remember well. This is, I guess, to avoid any slack during tensionning ??

I'm usually careful about maintenance, yes. I do a lot of work myself but I'm not an expert so I also know what I can't do, and call some professionals when needed. I'm not able to rebuild an engine for example and I sure won't try that on a V12 ;-) Same thing for a transmission.

 

Stéphane

I love the SM, and would love to own one (will you be selling one of yours ever?). I remember sitting in one several times at the dealer in the 1970s, when my father bought a DS23 Pallas followed by a CX25 Pallas.

You have probably heard the quote about the SM: "All the expense of a Ferrari but none of the stigma."

Aidan

 

If one day I can complete the restoration of my first SM, I'll perhaps have to make a choice and sell one, but to have a SM in running condition, I better have two of them ! That's another quote about the SM ;-)

After reading quite a bit about the 400, I think 400 and SM are similar: relative low initial price but high maintenance, cost and time. That's why they are sometimes forgotten in a garage for years and eventually sold. I didin't think it could be the case for a Ferrari, which for me, is loved by its owner and not just bought for transporation.

 

So, nobody lives near Irvine CA wants to go have a look to this red 400 and give his point of view?

 

Stephane,
besides the black Series 1 5-speed i have, i also know of a Silver/black Series 1 automatic.
if it's a Series 2 your after, then i can't make any suggestions...
and i personally don't really 'dig' the Series 2's nearly as much.
'm just not a fan of the leather, electronics or hydrualic rear suspensions...but that's me.

the Silver car i'm referring to is an outstanding example that we fully serviced recently...
valve adjust, waterpump, complete new front end (all bushings, ball joints, Koni's), brakes,
coated headers/stainless centers/Ansa rears, new Koni self-levellers, recovered dash, etc.
it has great, balanced compression (175psi) and the TRX's are in nice shape, but i have 15's
the recent Silver paint is beautiful and the black interior is very nice.

we killed ourselves on that car for the new owner, only to find out he can't register it...
California...hmph.

brett

 

the '81 Series 1 i mentioned...isn't it way prettier than the red one with the brown dash ?
and i can vouch for everything on the car...
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