I thought I'd start fresh rather than divert other threads. I have tried a few times to learn tracks with iRacing and Gran Turismo and another sim the name of which I cannot remember. None had multi screens or any motion. In a word, I drive like a drunk on every one. I have no sense of speed, rotation, decel rates or anything else and either putt along too slowly or careen off track as I have no sensation of excessive entry speed or the car's rotation. For example, I am in an uncontrollable spin before I ever realize opposite lock might have helped. I need my butt-o-meter! Now I have seen sims with motion and they look great, but holy mackerel are they expensive! Real track time seems comparatively priced, at least in Miatas or the like. I know I come up to speed on an unfamilar track in a real car much faster than in a sim. Maybe I just need to be locked in a room with a sim until I start to "get" how to use it. How do those who really race with pace take maximum advantage of sims and what kind of reasonably-priced hardware/software is there? How do you really learn to drive the visual-only sims and what are the substitutes for motion feedback you get in a real car? I want my own rig and want to spend under $2K. Is such a thing possible?
Personally, I'm high visual, so sims work great for me. Recently, I learned Laguna Seca and Road Atlanta using iRacing very effectively and much to my benefit. Like anything, practice is key; remember, this isn't a game. There's no reason why you can't put together a good set up for under $2K. I run iRacing on my MacBook, for crying out loud. I use an external screen and it's fantastic. Get a good box, a good screen, comfortable seat and a G27--and if you buy right, perhaps you can have some dollars left over for some Cannon pedals.
I think one of the great things about the sim is that you cannot rely on the sensations, so it trains your eyes and how you use them. If you sit down and try to "play" like it is a video game, you will not see what is happening fast enough. The trick is to look WAY down the track. If you look over the hood, it doesn't work. You have to be looking at the next turn that is off in the distance, just as you need to in the real world. Look where you want to go! I started with GTR, then GTR2. I now have iRacing, and it is even more difficult. It is the best simulator I have seen. I remember it taking many months to learn to drive GTR without spinning regularly. There was a learning curve with iRacing too. But now I very rarely spin, it is all about consistency and honing technique. I use a fairly lame PC, good wheel (logitech G50, I think), a cheap 25 inch LCD, and a race-type seat that a friend gave me. Entire kit was probably $500. Works great.
Like you, sims for me never cut it. You can;t feel the tires as you brake, same with REALISTIC steering wheel resistance during turns and of course you totally miss the body g-forces to feel the car and how she is handling. Sims just never worked for me OTHER THAN to at lease see a track before going there to understand the rhythm of the turns.
Its what makes a game fun imo. The 'simulators' on consoles are all rubbish, as we know... I played GTR/2 recently again after playing plenty of LFS and Rfactor...I prefer the latter 2 because you can really feel the tires going of compared to GTR2. Saying that, I didn't give GTR2 much time because I prefer openwheel racing, and Formula BMW does it quite nicely online on LFS, offline, Rfactor on 120% is ok with some F1 mods!
"I run iRacing on my MacBook, for crying out loud. I use an external screen and it's fantastic. Get a good box, a good screen, comfortable seat and a G27" Exactly what I use, down to the MacBook. I think iRacing is very helpful. I find the cars more sensitive to inputs than their real world equivalents, but that's not entirely a bad thing as I think it encourages smoothness. I drive the Dallara IndyCar and the pro Formula Mazda.
+1 i've also "driven" $100k simulators and it is definitely not cost effective unless you need to learn a street course where track time is not possible. i think you must need to get into the million dollar custom range in order to be anywhere near realistic.
Contact Chris at CXC. He might have good advice. He makes simulators and is a member here. He brought one to a get together. Check it. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139390920&postcount=78
My limited knowledge; I know a kid who races 700HP Sprint cars and he swears by the World of Outlaws Vid game treated as a sim. He claims it to be very representative of the real thing without the G's of course. He says some of the Nascar drivers practise with their version of the Nascar game. His tip to me; Wear the helmet you use in a race. It makes a difference.
Nice to see JSalmon and WCH chime in here, because they both use it with practical results to benefit their racing IRL (in real life). I have had over a dozen folks come in to work with me on my triple screen non-motion system using primarily iRacing, but also Power and Glory Mod using GTL cars and tire modeling on GTR2 platform specifically for training drivers for events like LeMans Classic. M-Dunlop tire models on vintage cars driving on the current LeMans and FIA Historic circuits are a good reason to use sims to prepare. I had a client prepare to drive his 289 AC Cobra at Spa 6-Hours, LeMans Classic and Nurburgring OldTimer in 2008. Against other FIA GT regulars, he qualified and raced in the top 10 in 70-90 car fields, partially due to the sim practice, or so he said. Jury is out on motion platforms. Try before you buy.
Hi kverges, To answer your questions: Well this is precisely why we make our tactile feedback simulator Notice I didn't just say "motion simulator". That's because there are so many more sensations beyond just the motion g-forces. Our simulator does incorporate a very fast, low-mass motion system, but we also have brake feedback devices, chassis vibration motors, seat belt tensioners, ultra high-end force feedback controls and much, much more. All these devices combined with our visual and audio systems draw a very complete picture for your brain. One that does not take very much "getting used to" as they are precisely tuned to be just like the sensations you feel on track. The trick is to treat any simulator as you would a real car. You start very slowly and purposefully. This is the most important thing. It's not a video game and will not drive like one. Without that fear of getting hurt, you will always dive into that corner faster, brake that little later, and jump on to the throttle sooner. Resist those temptations at first. Make very small increases in speed. Your mistakes will be smaller (recoverable) and you'll be able to pinpoint them very easily. As a former instructor myself, one of the first things I told my students was: The slower you learn, the faster you will go. In a simulator, your track time is unlimited, so take the real time to sort things out. It's true the cars are unlimited as well, but the more time you take to reset your car, warm tires and get back to speed the more frustrated you will get. The other big point is; most simulators lack any real 3D visual system, so you are missing that sense of depth (and thus a real sense of speed). This means you really need to focus on your visual reference points. With simulations like iRacing with laser accurate tracks (and track side objects) that's a good thing. All those reference points will carry right over to the real track. In simulators, people tend to look right down the hood of the car. Anyone who has been to a driving school will remember the "look ahead!" phrase. This is very true in simulators as well. Yup! Right on the money. This is VERY true. If you are indeed in the market for a tactile feedback simulator, drive all of the ones you are interested in. They are, after all, about feel. You cannot guess at how one will feel by looking at video or pictures. You just have to drive it. Chris Considine CXC Simulations
Hey Chris, can I quote some of your informational posting on my site to explain the benefits of sim training? I'll be glad to add a link to CXC! Best, Peter
I'll chime in briefly to share a recent experience I had. Even though I have worked with sim companies and technology for years now, both in a directive role as well as calibration and testing, I don't feel I'm great on them because I tend to be more a kinesthetic learning style over visual. The sim's that I have been involved in were highly complex motion-feedback systems costing huge $. The systems that have been more traditionally accessible are the ones that I've been most challenged with. All this is to set up... I have in the past 12 months had a fair amount of exposure to non-motion systems (plenty of feedback in the wheel but little else) and single screens. ProCoach has one such system. I found it quite challenging to drive relatively accurately and didn't really go out of my way to spend time on to practice because, like so many others I'd used, it just wasn't 'real' enough for me - especially in the visual field with just one screen. This kind of system is still great for learning basic layout and rhythm for me but just not immersive enough for me (I've seen others take to these systems like fish to water and it work absolute wonders for them.) Well ProCoach let me have a few minutes/laps on his big 3-screen sim yesterday and wow, what a difference! I won't say I did very good in it in the 5-10 minutes I got in the seat but I did feel I got up to speed and comfortable with the virtual environment WAY faster than on other non-motion systems. What he has is top notch fidelity and a very nice, wide visual field on a system that seems to mimic physical parameters VERY well. If you haven't seen or spent time on one of these systems - especially if you are like me and have trouble gauging speed, etc due to the missing kinesthetic info provided by the small iRacing systems & Virtual GTs, etc. of the world - I highly recommend you check it out. VERY worth while. Peter, um... ProCoach is definitely onto something for those who don't have access to systems at the level of what the ChrisConsidine's of the world offer. Thanks again Peter for giving me a few valuable minutes in your fantastic machine! OK, did I say I was going to be brief? Sorry, got run-on didn't I? Cheers & C U @ d'Track!! C Chuck Hawks, Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©
Certainly The info is for all to share... I have even more on our new site.... It should launch in about a week or so. Chris Considine CXC Simulations
Racing sims can familiarize you with the track. Even those on the console games are by now pretty accurate. You can also learn the ideal line around a track, which is as every Skip Barber graduate knows, the most important thing in getting lap times down. From my own track experience I can actually tell whether somebody has practiced at home in a sim or not. Those who haven't are easy to spot by strange "ideal" lines, missing apeces etc. Regarding the FFB and the general feedback from a sim vs real life: Yes, the clues are different: In a sim you have to train your senses differently: Instead of feeling the Gs and the moving of your butt, you have to focus on what you see, what your hands feel on the wheel and what you hear: Good sims use these senses to give you clues about the movement of your car. In sims, just as in real life you will learn over time how a oncoming over- or understeer looks as compared to the perfect corner. Your fingertips will learn the faint FFB on the wheel and signal your brain a push vs a pull. And your ears will start to recognize the chirps of wheelspin. I started out with Grand Prix 3, which has great physics and it took me about 2 years to get the hang of it. Just as it took about 2 years in gokarts IRL. Suddenly a switched flipped in my brain and I knew what the car was doing and where its limits were and consequently lap times dropped. Now that I have learned both "media" the learning curve is less steep and I get results much faster. A new sim takes a couple of months to figure it out and out on the track things are getting easier as well. BTW: Based on my own experience I'd say that "racing" F1 in my sim makes me go faster in the kart. In the end it is all about how fast and precise your neurons react to changes of inertia irrespective of what sensors triggered them.
I have But I'm a bit biased..... Honestly though, they are a great bunch of guys. They make a good product. We just have different ideas. Chris Considine CXC Simulations
ive got that same cockpit rkuo. did it take forever to get yours too? ive been waiting on my triple mounts since last dec. I do have some questions what are you using to connect all 3 xboxes together a hub? Are you just using a memory unit for your live profile to update each of the slave units. After you got finished is all the pain and money you have to go thru to set it up and maintain it really worth it?
Very cool rig! I recognize that Obutto Cockpit. It's really cool to see people are modding their controls for Xbox and PS3. We built our own ultra-high end Force Feedback back wheel and pedal system for PS3 and Xbox as an experiment. I never thought to mod the shifter, but now I think I might! It features: Incredibly strong, direct-drive Force Feedback engine Interchangeable race wheels Carbon fiber paddle system (and hand clutch) 8 Buttons on a carbon plate Quick-disconnect w/ electronic plug Aluminum pedal construction Pressure sensitive break pedal It's weird to be driving Forza with a wheel that can literally be ripped from your hands it's so powerful! We used the same drive systems that the F1 teams are using in their simulators. Chris Considine CXC Simulations
Forza does have FFB. Just not, I'm sure, as good as the professional hardware. I'm using the Fanatec wheel which is about as good as it's going to get on this. I wish there was more of a marriage between high end sims and games like Forza and Gran Turismo. Those games really have the budget to creating amazing environments and cars ... it's a shame to not be able to carry it to the next level in terms of simulation and compatible hardware.
I played Forza with the Microsoft wheel and yes it had FFB, but was so faint it was a mild joy. Is the Fanatec any better? I read somewhere (on here I believe) that Sony owns the patents to FFB and that's why it is so whimpy on the XBox and killer on the PS3. Very true. While dedicated racing sims are impressive and offer better hardware etc, in the long run you want to go where the software leads: Software development is very expensive and only big corporations who can divide the development costs amongst thousands if not millions of consoles are willing to constantly produce the latest and greatest. If you go with a dedicated simulator company, they might even give you the latest and greatest, but you'd pay through the nose. One of my pet gripes is that the console manufacturers primarily target the kid audience on the sofa. They have a superb product at their hands hardware wise, why not taylor it to a market in between the kids and the die hard simulator folks? The 3 monitor (actually networking 3 consoles) approach on Forza is brilliant and I wish Sony would do the same thing with PS3 and GT5. Somewhat related to that: It is really a sad story how little real flying sims there are for console games. That market belongs almost entirely to the PC.
Actually, a company called Immersion has a very broad patent that covers almost all Force Feedback Effects. The have in fact successfully sued Sony and Microsoft for patent infringement (not for their FF wheels but actually controller pad rumble effects). They do not produce hardware, but rather license the technology to other hardware manufactures. Microsoft, Logitech, Fanatec, and all the others simply buy a license and make their own interpretation of Force Feedback. Each one is radically different. The MS wheel is notoriously bad. It's really a piece of junk. It's not so much their controller as their mechanical implementing of the motor/drive system. They use an anemic motor/controller with a really basic gear system. These two things make for very little power and lots of gear lash. That being said, it is the cheapest way to get a wheel on the Xbox 360 by far, so it does have it's place. Do give Forza another try with a better wheel like the Fanatec. It'll change your mind for sure. Then when you're ready, come by and try it on our gear for a quantum leap in feel! They do Worked on GT4 as well. They are a dying breed on PC as well. There are almost no current gen flight sims anymore. Even the venerable Microsoft Flight Simulator has been canceled and the development team disbanded. I guess there just isn't a big enough market. Chris Considine CXC Simulations
