Porsche 959 lawsuit - Canepa design

Bryan M. mentioned earlier was responsible for getting the 959 tires into the US. He located the Bridgestone contact, arranged for importation, and some tires were purchased by owners. Andial eventually purchased a large lot. When Andial moved from PMS TIre Rack started selling them.

 

It's a safety issue. Bead lock wheels are much safer. As an aside I have a source who could likely manufacture these wheels with bead locks to OEM standards. It would cost about 15K for the molds/tooling and then about 2.5K per wheel.

My understand is EPA 21 years/DOT 25 years.

As an aside PS 2 are much better tires.

 

The 959 was built as a well engineered package including the wheels and tires. The DenLoc bead design is safer than standard tires beads. The 959 wheels were built around the Denloc design. The tires are reinforced in the appropriate places based on the wheel design.
PS2 tires may be better for other cars. Not the 959.

None of Canepa's modifications have been tested to any standard. This is very dangerous, IMHO. I've been in a car with aftermarket Porsche wheels that came apart at 65 mph. Not a nice scene. Any modification to the 959 wheel makes it a aftermarket wheel.

 

All good except the OEM tires are very dated. PS 2's are much more modern and IMO a better design. IMO manufacturing (Not modifying) these wheels to modern standards that could use modern tires would be safer.

I have sources that can do this and test them to all World Wide Standards. Hey the 959 is a Vintage Car and if driven calmly it's a non issue but if I were to seriously flog one I wouldn't do it on these wheels and tires. Other's might but I wouldn't.

If "None of Canepa's modifications have been tested to any standard" I certainly wouldn't drive on those under any circumstances.

 

The RE71s are anything but "dated". They were unique to the 959 and no other tire has ever been made to replace them in any capacity. "Modern" tires would not be safer. The design of the tire-wheel-car package was extremely well engineered to work together. No one has ever modified this concept on the 959.
I have a friend who owned a 959 for a long time. He purchased a separate set of wheel and tires (RE71s) and regularly took them to the track. He is a hard driver and loved the response of the OEM wheels and tires at track speeds and trials. But this made sense since the 959 was as close to a race car as it was to a street car and shared the optimal of both worlds.

I've have owned several 959s. And I've driven them hard. I can't imagine using any other tire than the RE71. I had a car with the Michelin's Canepa uses. Great tire (didn't care for the wear) but I would never put that tire on a 959.

 

That's what makes Horse Races. In it's day this hollow spoke/run flat/tire psi monitoring system was very advanced but IMO today it's not.

I personally like the Paris/Dakar cars and regret passing on one years ago.

What Wheel/Tires did those run on?

 

I'm not aware of anything new that has replaced the design concept used by the 959. The Michelin's used on the Honda are the same carryover concept from the 959. The 1994 Corvette (which MSN Auto erroneously reported to be the first production run flat, even though the tires were optional) had them. Also the Audi A8 BMW 3-Series BMW Z4 BMW Z8 Cadillac CTS-V
Cadillac XLR Chevrolet Corvette Dodge Viper SRT-10 Hummer H1 Lexus SC 430 MINI Cooper MINI Cooper S Rolls-Royce Phantom Toyota Sienna AWD

Bottom line: There isn't a modern tire (except the RE71) built to be put on a stock 959 rim. ANd modifying a stock rim without testing is playing with fire.

 

I agree with your bottom line and am not suggesting modifying a stock rim or fitting a different tire on a stock rim.

If I did own one I would investigate engineering, testing and manufacturing a new wheel system that could use modern tires.

As an aside I personally wouldn't use run flats as I don't like their handling characteristics verses other high performance tires. I realise the importance of tire psi warning systems.

 

Forgive Jim, but I don't get it. What exactly are you trying to achieve by modifying and changing tires on a 959? Is it that you want to go faster than the 197 mph that it has been running the last 23 years? Perfectly good drivers have done hundreds of thousands of miles in 959's during those years with the OEM tires. Is it because you feel you can't lap as quick as a modern equivalent that makes you want to up the stakes and modify the wheel to accept modern rubber? If so why don't you(or anyone for that matter) just run a modern car capable of putting the latest and greatest rubber on it. !? The 959 was engineered and tested to run with those tires and wheels during it's time and was quite successful at it too. If you or anyone feels "unsafe" with the OEM tires then maybe they should improve their driving cause lots of people were very capable and safe driving with the OEM combo during the last 23 years. No offence intended but that's my attitude to that. I feel the same about changing brakes on the F40 for street purposes. I will not change the brakes on my F40 and will drive within the limits of what the manufacturer intended. I just don't understand the concept of mucking around and trying to modernise everything. There are perfectly good modern cars for that.

 

I have no horse in this race not owning a 959, though I've had the opportunity to drive two, one in europe in the late 90's and a Canepa modded car last year. That said, I drove neither to their limits, as they exceeded my own, but philosophically, I share your point of view with respect to modifications associated with handling and performance. I'm perfectly fine with with modded ignition systems to improve reliability on older vehicles, but that's where I draw my arbitrary and personally biased line.

 

You sir are of course CORRECT! 2012 and forward and the market for 959 importation opens wide!!

 

Only that I personally don't feel safe running hard on 44 year old wheels on some of the roads I drive my cars on, The Historic Targa Florio, for example. Those roads are very rough, worse then they were on the day, so for cars that I drive there I use newly cast wheels with stronger alloys, bead locks and more modern tires.

 

You sure about this? Cars can be brought in under show and display but they have to conform to EPA rules in effect at the time of manufacture. This doesn't magically go away after 25 years. Rather, at the time the rules were established, EPA requirements had been in existence for less than 25 years, so cars older than that were exempt. It is no longer the case for cars that are 25 years old. There were EPA rules in effect in 1985. Cars of that vintage have to meet those standards, even if they are exempted from FMVSS.

 

1. Vehicles 21 Years Old Or Older
If the vehicle is at least 21 years old, there are no EPA compliance requirements upon importation. The age of the vehicle is determined by subtracting the calendar year of manufacture from the calendar year of importation. If the calendar year of manufacture is unavailable, the importer may substitute the model year or year of first registration. For instance, to qualify in 2001, the vehicle must have been manufactured in 1980 or earlier. The vehicle must be in its original unmodified configuration. Vehicles at least 21 years old with replacement engines are not eligible for thisexemption unless they contain equivalent or newer EPA certified engines.

No approval or Customs bond is required by EPA. The importer must also prove to Customs, as required, that the vehicle or engine was manufactured prior to EPA regulation. Documents such as a title, or letter from the original manufacturer may be used for this purpose.The importer must file with Customs, upon entry, an EPA Form 3520-1 and declare code "E" on that form.


Under 49 U.S.C. § 30112(a), a person may not permanently import into the United States a motor
vehicle manufactured after the date that an applicable Federal motor vehicle safety standard (FMVSS)
takes effect unless the vehicle complies with the standard and is so certified by its original
manufacturer. This prohibition applies to both new and used motor vehicles, but does not apply to
motor vehicles that are at least 25 years old (based on the date that the vehicle was manufactured).

 

I laughed so hard my sides hurt...thank you

 

Zack,

I am not sure about the Show and Display stuff...it has been SO LONG since my importation experience. Since no cars in TX that are 25 years or older have to meet EPA regs anymore I presumed that was the case on imported cars too... You are correct in that no matter the manufacture date of the car if you brought it in under S&D it DID still have to meet the EPA reqs but not the DOT stuff. SO STUPID! An oversight from our vaunted politicians. Bunch of MORONS all of them! Vote them all out of office they are to stupid to find their collective butts with both hands... ugh, sorry...rant off... LOL!

Could be that if you import a car today that is say 26 years old you STILL have to meet those as new EPA requirements of that day 26 years ago...I know my '92 928 GTS had to meet as new '92 car requirements from the EPA even though it was 8 years old and had over 100k miles on it at the time of import... Of course at the first TX registration it only had to meet the EPA reqs (or maybe they are not EPA at that point...maybe they are STATE requirements) of an 8 year old car...

Go figure. I have not read up on the import stuff in awhile and have slept since then anyway, so anything is possible. Should be easier to get 959's in a few years from now though I would hope anyway! We will see...I suspect someone will call and ask specifically about that pretty soon!

 

Thanks Pcar, but per Napolis' post (thanks, Jim), it seems after 25 years they do become exempt from EPA requirements.

I agree with you about politicians in general. What happened to common sense, efficiency, and competence?

 

With EPA it is 21 years and then cars are exempt. It starts at Jan 1 of the 21 year since some cars are built on a calendar year, not build year or like McLaren they just build them with some confusion as to year to VIN sequence.
For NHTSA, it is 25 years before exemption.
A car that was imported to a specific set of rules when it was imported (like Show and Display) doesn't grandfather into the 21 or 25 year rule. EPA says so, NHTSA isn't as clear. So if you imported a 959 as I did before the 21 year rule, you must maintain the car to teh rule in effect at time of importation. But since the EPA never checks, so what?

Then you have California to deal with. Since the US EPA is now defaulting to what CARB uses for emissions standards (it use to be CA used what the Feds used), it isn't like the old days. As goes CA now goes the rest of the US. That appears to be the future of regulation.
CA has its own standards which is why there are ICI's just certified to do CA work. I don't believe at the moment there are any CA ICIs. G&K dropped out after being fined and last I checked NCDL has not renewed since 2008.

 

(As a result, I am sure a few European 959's will enter the US in 2012 and 2013)
So is my previous statement potentially correct then?

 

I think it is correct as per quoted rules. (For cars imported after 25 years for the first time)

 

So is my previous statement potentially correct then?[/QUOTE]

sort of. 959s built in 1987/88 can enter the US now with only a letter from EPA exempting the from the EPA rules. For NHTSA they need to go through S&D until the 25 year rules takes effect.

For the 8 959s built in 1992 the same applies only at a later date.

 

You owned 4? Really? How come, did you run a race team? Did you have a dealership outside the US? If so, that's not really owning the car in the we talk about it on here, even if it is technically true.

 

berryman, you mentioned a Bryan M earlier. Who is that? Not Bryan Milazzo the whackjob from Bow, NH, who claims that exotic cars are used for terrorism? The one whose own police force sued him to stop harassing them? The one who rails against judges, neighbors, teenagers, etc., etc. in a never-ending stream of letters to his local newspaper. The one who tried to inject himself into every 959 transaction and when that bid failed, took it upon himself to tie up the NHTSA with his ridiculous FOIA requests?

Are you him, by any chance? I am asking because of the similarity of names (berryman, BM, Bryan Milazzo) and because of the IP address of your posts coming out of Bow, NH. If so, game's up. Crawl back in your hole and go back to trying to catch speeders like a self-appointed Boss Hogg.

 

Guess you better crawl back in your hole. I know Bryan and worked with him on importing a car and will pass this along (in case he hasn't seen it). He'll likely want to sue you for sander and libel
Better check you IP address, you're way off. I'll let the Ferrari chat webmaster know.

 

GOOGLE is your friend.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Bryan+Milazzo+Bow+New+hampshire&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=