OK, guys, I am seriously hoping that Dave Helms, Rifledriver, FBB, Ernie, Daniel and/or any others can help me. I bought my 1999 355 Spider F1 in July 2008 with 18k miles. After 1200 miles I got DTC codes P1130 and P1452. NOBODY can tell me exactly what code P1130 means (The 360 DTC code list does NOT have P1130, and, Yes, I have searched this entire site and internet). I think it has something to do with the engine running a little lean but since it is Ferrari-specific I don't know exactly. P1452 (at least on the 360 DTC list I have) is related to the secondary air pump circuit and there was a blown fuse. The tech (not my current and regular mechanic) found a vacuum leak in the header and repaired it. No other CELs related to this until May 2009 the day before I was scheduled to drop my 355 off for a 30k service. The CEL activated and again, it was the stupid P1130 and P1451 (P1451 is also related to the secondary air pump on the 360 DTC list). My current tech worked for a Ferrari dealer for many years as their lead tech but quit in 1997 to open up his own shop--he was factory-trained on the 355, which was his last factory training and owns and maintains a 456. After pulling everything out for the 30k service he saw that the left cat had disinigrated entirely and was in need of replacing. He also showed me a 2-inch hole in the left header, also. Furthermore, many pieces of the cat were lodged in the OEM exhaust which were rattling like crazy. So, I put in rebuilt QV London Headers, Hyper-Flow cats, and a Quicksilver SuperSports exhaust. I didn't have any CELs or problems until January 2010. I finally bought an OBDII reader so I could check the codes myself. January 2010 I got a CEL with a DTC code P1130 AGAIN!! The pending codes, however were P1451, P0422, & P0432. The last two are NOT manufacturer-specific and according to the 360 DTC code list, P0422 is "Main Catalyst Efficiency Is Below Threshold" and P0432 is "Main Catalyst Efficiency (Bank 2) is Below Threshold. Wow...so my cats are bad??? Umm...didn't I just replace them with brand-new Hyper-Flows??? Ugh...so I took my car into my mechanic and he ran his tests and told me that there are no leaks and the car is fine. He reset the codes and drove the car for a week with no problems. I pick up the car and February 8th @ 25,206 miles I get another CEL. The fault code is P1451, and the pending codes are P0422 & P0432. I take the car down and he looks it over, etc and same diagnosis--nothing wrong with the car. BTW, every time the secondary air pump codes trigger a CEL my secondary air pump has worked normally with the exception of the first time when the fuse blew. I think my tech replaced it with a bigger fuse--would this cause a CEL??? We clear the codes, and I put 220 miles on her over the 4 days I'm home and yesterday I get another CEL. This time, the trigger fault codes are P0422 & P0432; the pending codes are P1451 & P1130. I'm stuck at this point. I did not clear the CEL because I'm tempted to do the one thing I am scared to attempt....take it to the Ferrari dealer. I'm scared because I have heard a lot of horror stories about the dealer's solutions being: REPLACE the broken items and we'll see if it fixes the problem. Brothers, will the SD computer TELL ME SPECIFICALLY where in the hell the problem(s) is? I don't have a problem paying the $240 they want to plug my 355 in and diagnose the problem--IF it will in fact tell me what I need to do to fix this. Also, is it possible that I got defective Hyper-Flow cats, QV London rebuilt headers, or Quicksilver exhaust? How would one test each of these to determine if there were a problem...or is this type of test even possible without taking everything out ($$$ in labor)? I know this is a long post but I am desperate. I know my tech is capable and I have no problem leaving him my 355 with an open ticket because he is the most honest mechanic I have ever dealt with and charges me actual time, not book rate. But if he can't find the problem, what should I do??? Thanks to all of you who answer this post.
I recall reading a similar problem from a US driver. Turned out the gasket from his filler cap was worn / gone giving readings of leakage ...
Just guessing here but it's probably due to the aftermarket cats. Not that they are "bad" or "defective" but a small metallic core cat is not going to be as efficient as the originals so it may trigger a fault with the obd2 system as far as catalyst efficiency. A few things just to look at is are the primary o2's switching quickly and are the fuel trims in line? The secondary o2's should not have much movement once the car is warmed up. If they are nearly matching the primaries then the cats are not working. You may look at the one way check valves for the air injection as well. Now, in terms of the cat low efficiency codes. I don't really see this as a major problem because I would rather have metallic core cats than the originals, light or not. You might consider having the ecu reflashed to eliminate the cat efficiency codes though some people may disagree.
Have you replaced all of the O2 sensors? They don't last forever and if they are over 5 years old probably need to be replaced. You are not going make any progress on the fault codes you are getting unless you have four O2 sensors that are working correctly all the time. Yes, you can look at the wave form with the SD2 to verify their operation. You can also do it with a Lab Scope. However they may look fine when in the shop but randomly take a dump while driving causing a code to be set. The cat efficiency code could be caused by an O2 sensor, a defective cat, or a cat that is not OBDII rated. This code can also be caused by something in the Motronic system that is keeping it from going into closed loop. Or something that is preventing the O2 sensor and fuel trim adjusting to the proper air fuel ratio that will allow the chemical reaction to occur in the cat converter. The SD2 does not have the ability to tell you what your exact problem is. However it wil provide the information to a knowledgeble tech who can interperet it and make a diagnosis. About the air pump code. Just because the air pump runs during warm up does not mean the air injection system is working correctly. What the Motronic wants to see is the voltage from the O2 sensors drop to near zero while the air pump is running. If the pump RPM is too slow, the vacuum switching solenoid to the air injection valves is not opening them, the one way valves are rusted shut, you have a major leak in the plumbing, or your O2 sensor is not responding correctly a code will be set. The common factor for these two codes are the O2 sensors. I would replace all four, clear the codes and drive it. If any of the codes return then find a person who knows how the Motronic/OBDII systems works to complete the diagnosis. Also just because an O2 sensor is new doesn't mean it works correctly. Even the ones from Ferrari. (not Rifledriver but works for him)
Thank you to those who have posted thus far. I'm not interested in removing my CEL bulb. I want to fix this problem--not simply mask it. I won't be able to talk to my mechanic until later today as he is not in his shop. I looked at my papers from my 30k and he replaced one O2 sensor and said the other three were working properly and there was no need to replace the ones that were working. I'll talk to him and see what he says about all of your comments. Hope to get this worked out. Is Hyper-Flow's rep on this board?
Testing O2 sensors is a worthless exercise. Their failure is usually intermittant. It can go on strike for 20 seconds in ten hours of running and you will never see it but it will set a light. If you get a code that can be caused by a bad O2 just replace them. We have had that lesson taught to us several times at great expense.
Talked to my tech. I'm bringing the 355 in on Friday. He's going to run the tests you guys mentioned. Brian, since we replaced one O2 sensor, should I just replace the three old ones? Also, the Cats are new Hyper-Flows installed May 2009. Has anyone else had any problems with CELs with these? Brian, do you know what DTC P1130 is on a 355? My tech ran tests during the 30k and found that the long-term fuel trim was lean--but the three times we've tested it the short-term is fine. Also, compression and leak-down performed at the 30k were both favorable. I know nothing about cars so I'm not sure if this helps.
Does the 5.2 on a 355 definitely check air injection functionality in this manner? Planning on eliminating my air injection. That's why I ask. Does it cause a check engine light or just store a code? If it does turn on the light does it go out once the air injection period is over?
Thanks Brian (although it makes me feel :-( Just spent a bunch of money for custom made air injection manifold block-off nuts. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
These cars are also getting very old. I am shocked by the poor quality and variable quality in the wiring of various connectors and the wiring itself. O2 sensor connectors sit nearly underbody and are not sealed all that well.
Just wanted to let everyone know I dropped my 355 for a week with my mechanic. I'm away on business and haven't talked to him yet. I told him to take his time so he may not have even started yet. I'll know something by Fri and I'll post then
What were the numbers on both compression and leakdown tests? Also on the percent leakage if more than 5% found at each cyl was the leakage predominantly from piston rings, and exhaust valves? This sounds very familiar: we had a client with VERY similar symptoms and readings who worked on his own car trying to sort this out on his own with same cats. Finally performed compression test at my insistence and leakage was past the rings and exhaust valves, i.e. the dreaded fuel washed out worn liners and burned exhaust valves from header failure or guides wearing out or both (chicken/egg). He had replaced the headers and the cats (he thought in time) several years back.
The results are at my house and I will not be there until tomorrow. I should find out his tests results in about an hour.
Swapping the air pump fuse from a 15amp to a 20amp is an approved fix. Ferrari put too low an amperage fuse in their from the start.
OK, not sure what to do now. My tech went through the entire GD car and came up with NOTHING that could be fixed/modifed to clear the CELs. He tested the air pump and it is pushing out slightly less air than another 355 that he had in his shop, but he said he wasn't causing any problems with doing its job. This may be the p1452 & p1451 codes that have popped up from time to time since I owned the vehicle. As for the cat efficiency codes--no leaks, compression is perfect, nothing...Tested the O2's and they all work as supposed to. Now Brian Crall said I should just replace the three that ( We replaced one in June 2009 during the 30k service) are old and see what happens. I didn't want to go this route but I think that is what I'm going to have him do. As for the p1130 code regarding the long-term fuel trim running a little lean...he still can't find anything wrong with the short-term fuel trim. So, I will most likely replace the remaining 3 O2 sensors MOnday and drive it and wait... If this does NOT fix my problem, what can the SD computer tell me about my car if the p1130, p1451(2), and both cat codes return? If I am going to pay the Ferrari dealer $240 for them to plug their machine in I want to know what I will be able to deduce from that SD system. I am so frustrated right now...
My suggestion to remove the bulb was obviously TIC. But it's a shame to have a wonderfully designed engine saddled with a poorly thought out diagnostic circuit. In future (any designers listening?) it would sure be nice to be able to filter certain codes from tripping a permanent CEL condition. And have 2 tiers of CEL, i.e. those conditions which are flaky and untrustworthy as the car ages and electronics become unreliable (as they all do). When a condition affects safety, engine reliability (and unfortunately environmental mandates) a CEL condition is ok. But transient conditions which are little more than a warning should be treated as such...a second tier CEL giving notice on startup but deactiveable (new word). Plus I wish there was a united consumer push for a built-in engine condition readout without requiring special odbc boxes. Very doable at no extra cost, just requires the desire to provide it.
Unfortunately there is nobody else in Portland. Ron Tonkin is the only other place that could work on my 355. Seattle is the closest other city. I may have to look at taking her to Ron Tonkin...
Be VERY CAREFULL if you take it to FofSeattle. There is a very good shop in Tacoma but can't remember the name....they also work on Alfa's. One of the problems of throwing parts at trouble codes is the new parts can also be bad and trip the same codes. We have all been flustrated with ferrari ownership and problems happen (I have a rod knock in my tr). There is some great info in old posts but the search function makes it hard to find. The other problem with Dealers is they will throw parts at the problem and explain that they were needed also. The classic example is the the dealer that replaced the computer, caps, rotor and wires on a tr trying to fix a problem of a bad water temp sensor ($90 vs. $7500). So: Some code readers display incorrect code numbers. Motronic sometimes doesn't like metallic cats and maybe the stock cats could be re-installed to work through the other problems. Everybody likes to wash their motor and water gets injected in places it shouldn't so try some contact cleaner. If you have the time, you could put two good sensors on one cat, check codes that trip, clear them and then change the sensors to the other side and see what codes trip. Think of the motor as a stereo amplifier and compare pieces (sensors) side to side (just don't swap computers). FWIW. Jeff Pintler 89 348tb, 86tr, 99 360 3-pedal
Jeff, I understand that the dealers typically have a "replace things one at a time to see if it solves the problem." That can add up quickly. The shop in Seattle is Alfa Tacoma and Pope Carlo is the man you are referring to. I have thought about that. He doesn't have an SD reader. Perhaps Brian may be on point with finding a good diagnostician--Carlo is well-renowned for his knowledge of older FCars. I'm assuming a 355 wouldn't be too much different than a TR??? THe problem is that I know almost nothing about cars. My mechanic did a 30k and the CEL went away for over 2000 miles. We replaced EVERYTHING during that 30k. I'm not trying to be argumentative with Brian, but I still can't get an answer as to whether a SD computer can tell me the problem that is triggering the CEL. If that's the case, I can take it to the dealer to get a diagnosis and my tech can fix the problem. I'm in limbo at this point. I owe $6k more in taxes than I budgeted for so this month is pretty tight to be throwing money at the 355...April 15th is 2 weeks away.
Hyper-Flows website states: "Hyper-Flow Catalytic Converters offer your Ferrari maximum legal air flow for Maximum performance. Our stainless steel metallic core with its exclusive treating process easily out flows even the best ceramic units, while maintaining full OBD2 compatibility." I'm so confused at this point...
Where do I start.. OK - first - if you are getting "cat efficiency" codes and have aftermarket cats, you have already likely found your cause. But as to "the SD" or any other code readers... All they can do is tell you WHAT THE ECU *thinks* is wrong. Anytime you have a "fuel trim" code - you need to check the basics. O2 sensors? replace 'em - they are cheap MAF? clean it - maybe borrow a friends if you can that is "known good" Fuel Pressure? - has it been verified that the regulators are working and connected to the right manifold vacuum source? All the "Ferrari" BS aside - Bosch Motronic EFI - is Bosch Motronic EFI. The computer reads incoming air and other things like engine coolant temp. It determines how much fuel to inject It opens injectors for a set period If the fuel pressure is "correct" - meaning that the differential pressure between the fuel itself and the current manifold vacuum state is within specification - then the right amount of fuel is injected. The burning of that fuel is then monitored by the O2 sensors. Minor corrections are made by the adaptation system as "fuel trims". Things that can affect this: 1) Bad components 2) Bad wiring 3) Bad fuel pressure 4) Exhaust leaks Pick one or more. Remember that the system "sees" the air pump by noticing the "lean" effect caused by the air pump firing more fresh air into the headers to light the cats. (Yes, that's what the air pump does - the engine goes over rich for a bit - the air pump throws fresh air into the headers - heat + fuel + oxygen "lights" the catalysts quicker) As Brian said - you need a good diagnostician who understands the system. Jim
