Okay, please don't ask me how I know the rule about putting two feet in when your world goes topsy turvy. But I do. But, how many of you turn loose of the steering wheel? I have heard this from a number of experienced racers, particularly of the historic variety. As an old biker, though, I'm reluctant to let go. Letting go is never a good thing when you are on two wheels. So, what say ye? Dale
Letting go is a better than hanging on in a death grip if you panic. Its also great to let go if you are definitely going to hit something - steering wheel will move very suddenly when you front into a tire wall and can break a wrist or arm. However I keep driving even if I'm going backwards - I've avoided a number of high mph collisions with something solid, by just continuing to steer the car, in my view the key is to look where you want the car to go. If you look at the wall, that's what you hit.
I remember an early HDPE day when I had Chuck Hawks (instructor, Fchatter) in my car at VIR. We were running the North Course and going uphill at turn 7. (If I have the turns remembered properly) There is a concrete wall on the RH side of the track, and nothing but open field on the left side. There's no earthly reason why anyone should hit that RH wall.... but they do. In the words of Chuck Hawks, "That wall is not there. Don't even look at it. It simply does not exist. The only thing you see is the grass on the left and the track in front." When I asked him why he made that comment, his reply was simple --- if you look at it, you'll hit it. If you don't look at it, you won't."
All good advice. Both feet in, keep steering, but don't keep that right pedal down. Other than "looking where you don't want to go" ending up in heartbreak, trying to "drive out of it" with throttle just means you're going to hit whatever you might have hit harder!
Braking systems are hydraulically driven. Moderate pressure with one foot is enough to lock up the wheels. Why both feet in? Catching a spin is just basic car control in drifting: countersteer and ADD throttle. When the tail slides just let go of the wheel, it will countersteer itself. At the same time add throttle to transfer weight to the rear wheels to increase grip and stop the slide. However adding throttle is counterintuitive so it takes a lot of practice to do. At the very least DO NOT lift off the throttle, otherwise weight transfers off the rear wheels and the slide gets worse. This is from my personal experience. Check out in-car videos on YouTube to see how drifters keep cars under control even at insane drift angles.
My technique has always been to take a mini mini fraction of a second right after a shunt to analyze the situation and react accordingly. Instinctively stomping the pedals is not always the right thing to, in fact in my opinion it rarely is.. I've ended up on two wheels multiple times (one time for about 3 full seconds) and I have never rolled from a shunt because of driving it out, etc. Now granted sometimes a hesitation may in fact make things worse, but so far it has always worked for me. VM3: I believe both feet in means brake and clutch. OP: Luckily I've only experienced one end over end from a mechanical failure and subsequent hitting the wall, but in my situation and analyzing other's wrecks I think it usually happens quicker than you can react. And, unless you can lock your arms in a folded position or you have a restraint system, I would rather take my chances breaking wrists and retaining a fixed and stable position by grasping the wheel than let my arms flail about helplessly..
Dr. Who, I know what you are talking about. Yes two feet in and hands off the wheel allow the natural rake of the suspension to self-center the wheel faster than you can man handle it back especially with a tankslapper. But I don't think of it as two feet in hands off. It is just momentary. Two feet in means you are beyond correction and you are along for the ride. But as this happens if you take hands off the wheel the steering will self correct and return to center if you have average caster from 5-7 degrees or so. Then as the car spin slows down you can regain control and grip the wheel correct and get back on the gas if you are still on pavement. Is that what your friends are talking about?
If you are in a situation where you have spun and decided to put both feet firmly in, assuming your tires are locked up it really should not make a difference if your hands are on the steering wheel or not. The car will continue to take the trajectory it was heading in when the wheels were locked up regardless of the steering input. This is basic physics. Taking your hands off the wheel may actually be some ok advice for a total rookie because they can easily loose all spatial awareness in a spin and if you contact a wall, the front wheels are likely to be forced into a new angle easily snaping the wrists of anyone holding on to the wheel tightly. In addition to this WAY too many rookies let off the brakes before the car comes to a total stop. Even at a few MPH this is often enough to roll a car into the path of oncoming traffic or lightly nerf it into a wall it would have otherwise missed. It is a good practice to make total sure the car is stopped before releasing the brake pedal. Once you are sure then count an additional 3 seconds because you may not have been so sure the first time. More experienced racers and trackers will continue to work with brakes, throttle, and steering in bad situations and will often save it. Lots of people will give you TONS of advice on what exactly to do in a sticky situation and the truth is that most of it is eutopic bs that you are not likely to remember or be able to put into practice. Your natural insticts are incredibly good in times of crisis so the best advice I can give is the following in order: 1. Look where you want to go 2. No sudden sharp movements on any of the controls 3. Don't give up until you have stopped or hit something that has stopped you.
"More experienced racers and trackers will continue to work with brakes, throttle, and steering in bad situations" Or, fly it until the last piece stops moving.
Never, ever, EVER stop driving the car until the car comes to a stop. Keep looking where you want to go - your hands will follow your eyes, as they should. That said, there are only two situations where I know of that I would let go of the wheel - 1. As FatBillyBob refers to: when the car is out of shape - BUT predictably recoverable AND you KNOW that the caster will attempt to recenter the wheel faster than your hands can do so. BUT (and this is a big but) you have to know when to catch it (put your hands back on the wheel) to get ahead of the car and its interia. If you miss, the pendulum effect will bite you in the keester and you can start the whole out of shape process over, only potentially worse or in a worse position. 2. When you KNOW you are about to impact hard, nose first. Just prior impact, you should cross your hands across your chest and grab your belts. This avoids getting your wrists, fingers, or hands damaged if not broken should the wheel whip due to the impact. It also keeps your arms from flailing about the cabin and impacting anything. Read sentence 3 to understand why. I don't endorse letting go of the wheel to recenter the car unless it's a last resort and, again - you know how to predict where things will end up and have the motor skills to grab back on exactly on time. Usually the best thing you can do in a spin such as might present this situation is straighten the wheel and hold it straight. This will help the car come to a stop in a more predictable vector/direction when both feet in. Cheers & C U @ d'Track!! C Chuck Hawks, Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator rEvolution Performance Driving System ©
Sorry for going black in my own thread. Had to pay the rent and all that. But, thanks so much for the comments. What got me to thinking about this was the tragic story about the Porsche 930 hitting coolant at speed. While we probably will never know the facts, my guess is the driver lifted when he hit the slick stuff. Based on my own personal experience with Spec Racer Fords, it takes a lot of discipline to stay on the gas when a rear engined car starts to spin. (Please understand I'm talking about not upsetting the car at a critical point, not getting on the power.) So I was trying to visualize a really wicked high-speed spin, which, fortunately, I have never experienced. I know enough to put both feet in, hard. But I was wondering if sawing at the wheel would make things worse or better. Frankly, I would have a hard time letting go. I raced dirt bikes in my mis-spent youth and know all about hanging loose. But I also know that "laying er down" is the worse thing you can do on a motorcycle. My guess is my instincts would call me to rage against the dying light, even if this would be counter productive. Your thoughts? Dale PS Chuck, the first time I heard the rule about letting go before hitting a wall was at a Champs race where they let us Ferrari guys have a parade lap. Of course, they kept our speed below 60 mph. But they told us the story anyway.
As always, there are exceptions to every rule. One such case occured on Saturday with a coaching client I had at VIR. He had a minor contact with the inside wall at the exit of T17 (Hog Pen). Having just passed a car in the entrance to 16, he was carrying significant speed into 17. This is ok - IF one is willing to continue commitment to the throttle, which he didn't. Instead, he paused on throttle application (Traqmate data indicated even a slight lift) which imposed a rotating rear end. He is/was of the mindset that "if you can't catch it immediately, go both feet in." That's exactly what he did. His vision was good (looking downstream) and hands, albeit a touch slow were following his eyes - BUT - the both-feet-in approach compounded the light rear end issue and the rotation turned into a spin. As soon as he reached the bottom of the hill, the car went where friction and gravity dictated... over to the inside Armco and ultimately a brush with a tire wall. Seeing as he only hit at about 10-15 MPH, damage was slight enough that he could contiune to drive the rest of the weekend (and finish 2nd in the TT on Sunday!) My point is two-fold: 1. Knowing when to give up (go both-feet-in) is supremely important. In this case, he gave up too early. His SOP of just jumping straight to BFI if the car doesn't immediately respond to correction ultimately bit him in the butt. Needless to say, we had some new coaching criteria to work on the rest of the event . Even if you are BFI, keep looking where you want to go (which he did) and only go BFI when you are sure it's beyond correction. 2. There are exceptions to every rule. In this case, he could have applied more throttle to move weight to the rear and at a minimum drivien the car to the outside of the track where there's fields of run-off room; and maybe even kept it on track, albeit VERY messy. Either resulting in no damage over the two fenders and a bumper cover that now need repair. Just thought I'd throw this in as it seems relevent and is quite fresh on my mind. Cheers & C U @ d'Track!! C Chuck Hawks, Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator rEvolution Performance Driving System ©
Interesting. I have never given any thought as to when to throw out the boat anchor. Thinking back, my rule of thumb appears to be to go BFI when I am at least 180 degrees into what feels like a 360 spin. It takes me that long to realize I have lost the battle. Up to that point, I'm still working! BTW, was your guy back on the line by the time he turned into T17 or was he wide of the curbing? From what I remember, in a MX-5 car, the entry into the Hog Pen is similar to the Cork Screw, with the difference that there are lots and lots and lots of run out in the Hog Pen. It seemed natural to roll on the gas as you dive bomb this turn. My problem was always T16 because I felt I was carrying too much speed before the turn in to the Hog Pen. Then again, I felt that way about a lot of the turns that day at VIR. Some day, I shall return! Dale
I keep driving, until steam fogs the windshield......I once lost control at freeway speeds in the rain, and after two and a half times completely around, brought the car to a skidding stop...going backwards......without hitting either side.............of the bridge! I had about 800# of copper in the back seat, I guess it balanced the engine block in the front....
He was close to online; not optimal but certainly drivable. When his car touched the curb at T17 entry, that's when he lifted slightly (data backed this up) - which we discovered is his natural tendency: lift on the unexpected. We immediately started some habit changing drills. Your problem in T16 is most peoples' problem in that complex. You can actually carry much more speed through there than seems possible and the pucker factor gets high quick, leading most to lift or at a minimum stop accelerating. This can lead to the rear end doing some, shall we say: unwanted steering (TTO). My practice and certatainly what I preach/teach is never, ever stop driving the car until the car has come to a stop. This includes BFI - where one is still driving the car, just with less granularity. That's a heck of a lot of "bias weight!" Or as some sanctions call it - "Rewards Weight..." Cheers & C U @ d'Track!! C Chuck Hawks, Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator rEvolution Performance Driving System ©
I don't believe a spinning car will self correct as you describe. The caster effect is predicated on forward travel, not the side forces generated in a spin. It would seem to me the wheels may turn full lock in one direction. Someone please correct me if wrong. Having had a 360* view of the kink at Road America I can tell you that I was most definately both feet in and hands on but didn't mess with the wheel when all I could see was dust. I very nearly struck the wall coming to a stop. I'm convinced NOT trying to drive out of a (really)fast spin kept the car traveling more or less the direction it was pointed to begin with. I'd also like to think I would have had the presence of mind to let go at that last moment to preserve my wrists, not hoping for the opportunity to see.
