360 Clutch Problem - High RPM Only | FerrariChat
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360 Clutch Problem - High RPM Only

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by FerrariDublin, May 4, 2010.

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  1. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
    3,454
    Dublin, Ireland
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    Greg
    #1 FerrariDublin, May 4, 2010
    Hi All,

    I'm finding that when changing gear at high rpm (say 6500 or higher) that the clutch is behaving oddly. It's hard to describe, but the pedal feels like normal until about half way depressed and then I feel it sinks to the floor from that point. It also feels odd as I release the pedal but I just can't put my finger on what's different. It's all happening so quickly and in such a frantic environment, given the engine speed and noise, that I'm finding it difficult to figure out exactly what is going on.

    I don't understand what relationship there could possibly be between high RPM and misbehaving clutch but it is not an issue at lower engine speeds. I have no clutch slip and at lower revs or when engine is turned off the clutch pedal feels fine with a solid pedal and a nice smooth progressive feel. I haven't noticed any fluid loss.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. andrewmr

    andrewmr Formula Junior

    Jun 7, 2005
    320
    Bucks County, PA.
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    Michael
    #2 andrewmr, May 4, 2010
    Last edited: May 4, 2010
    Is it a stock clutch - pressure plate?

    I once replaced a Borg and Beck style unit with a diaphragm style unit and while it had more clamping force, it seemed to over center and not release correctly at high RPM's. EDIT - this was not in a Ferrari.....

    Does the clutch release at a reasonable point or is it high or low?
     
  3. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
    3,454
    Dublin, Ireland
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    Greg
    #3 FerrariDublin, May 4, 2010
    Hi Michael, thanks for yours.

    I've no reason to believe it's anything other than standard OEM clutch - service history prior to my purchase was all main dealer.

    I would say initial bite is between and quarter and a third way out from fully depressed. I'd regard it as feeling pretty normal (i.e. versus any other car) 98% of the time.
     
  4. Dino355

    Dino355 Rookie

    Nov 5, 2007
    44
    Wimbledon England
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    Dean
    #4 Dino355, May 4, 2010
    I had the exact same problem with my 360 and the pedal faded at high revs, the gear change was also a little crunchy... It was diagnosed that the clutch was getting towards the end of its life. New clutch and all was ok! Wallet a little sore...

    Good luck

    Dean
     
  5. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,727
    #5 Mitch Alsup, May 4, 2010
    Classic description of the spring in the pressure place not having a clutch disk that is thick enough. The spring has a particular geometry wrt throw and pressure. It is somewhat non-linear and designed to allow the foot of the user to be happy, and to enable low-to-mid friction control with the pedal with feel.
     
  6. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
    3,454
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    Greg
    #6 FerrariDublin, May 4, 2010
    Hi Dean, thanks. The clutch was replaced only 4k miles ago and I did about 3k of those. Obviously I can't speak for the previous owner and his 1000 miles but I've always been pretty soft on clutches and I don't tend to rev and slip, preferring to get the clutch out pretty damn quickly if I want to get away pronto and just let the tyres take up the slack.

    Obviously it could be worn but I'm not convinced (yet)!
     
  7. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
    3,454
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    Greg
    #7 FerrariDublin, May 4, 2010
    Hi Mitch, thanks for your input. I'm not sure I understand fully what you're saying but I do note this is the second suggestion that the clutch is worn. You mention that "The spring has a particular geometry wrt throw ..." can you elaborate? I don't understand.
     
  8. Dino355

    Dino355 Rookie

    Nov 5, 2007
    44
    Wimbledon England
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    Dean
    #8 Dino355, May 5, 2010
    I think you will find that Mitch is saying that the friction liner (Clutch plate) has worn down and is now getting to the point where it is too thin... 4,000 miles can eat a clutch easy! and even if the 3,000 you have done have been gentle the previous 1,000 could easily have done it.

    Your symptoms are exactly the same as mine but I do understand your position. I would bet this is the problem. Get some indipendant advise from a specialist! I don't think you can check the clutch plate without removal and then you would be crazy not to fit a new one anyway.

    Cheers


    Dean
     
  9. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
    3,454
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    Greg
    #9 FerrariDublin, Oct 3, 2010
    Finally managed to resolve this issue. Problem had got worse and occasionally the pedal would stick (or almost stick) when pressed down. This led me to master cylinder which had evidence of a leak so replaced that but had a lot of trouble bleeding the system and getting a pedal. Further investigation revealed that the hose from the resevoir was badly routed and wasn't allowing fluid down fast enough. As the pedal was depressed it left a vacuum causing the problem. Once the pipe was re-routed end of problem - happy days!

    Thanks to all contributors and hope my findings are of use to someone else some day.
     
  10. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
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    Pap
    #10 PAP 348, Oct 3, 2010
    Wow, nice find mate! :):)

    Thanks for the update! :D:D
     
  11. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
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    #11 FerrariDublin, Oct 3, 2010
    Yes, I was well chuffed. I was pretty sure it was going to turn out to be the release bearing / slave and sure while there a disc and plate would have been called for so I'm well pleased to get out as I did!
     
  12. Dino355

    Dino355 Rookie

    Nov 5, 2007
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    Dean
    #12 Dino355, Jan 3, 2011
    Fantastic news and well done for finding that one!
     
  13. Mozella

    Mozella Formula Junior

    Mar 24, 2013
    905
    Piemonte, Italia
    #13 Mozella, Aug 1, 2013
    Your "hard to describe" symptoms are exactly what I'm experiencing on my 360 (manual transmission). I also noticed the clutch sometimes not fully disengaging when backing-and-filling to get out of my garage and down my driveway; it's a tight fit.

    If I miss a little bit I get trapped in a corner between a fence and my gate. Then it takes several more quick cycles of first gear and reverse. It is then that I sometimes notice the car creeping with the clutch pedal fully depressed. I think it's the rapid clutch pumping that is causing the problem. During normal driving the clutch operates normally and the pedal feels normal.

    As for high RPM shifts, I figure that these shifts involve a very rapid stab of the pedal, possibly revealing a faulty clutch pump which functions OK during more sedate shifting. I believe that a faulty master clutch cylinder containing either dirt or bad seals might be the cause of both my problems.

    I'll soon find out because I have the new part in hand. When I can find a few spare hours, I'm going to change the clutch pump, bleed the system, and hope for happy days like you.

    This is an old thread, but if you happen to see it can you give me some details on how the clutch tubing was incorrectly routed?
     
  14. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
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    Charleston, SC
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    Curt
    #14 vrsurgeon, Aug 1, 2013
    Mozella, a clutch pump or master cylinder was my thought as well reading your post...

    Greg.. sweet! I guess this means that if I have any issue on the car I need to track from A to B in each system. Beginning to end... Thanks for the followup.
     
  15. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    #15 FerrariDublin, Aug 1, 2013
    Just by way of further update, the car has another 10~12k miles on the clock.

    I did have slight recurrence of "odd" symptoms a few months after the original diagnosis and bled the system again. I've never had a recurrence since despite extensive use on track as well as road.

    I'd definitely recommend a good solid bleeding session as a first port of call for any similar issues. It's all too easy to simply assume it's the clutch or release bearing and get straight into $$$ unnecessarily.
     
  16. cavlino

    cavlino Formula 3

    Mar 6, 2002
    1,740
    Ottawa, Canada
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    Carm Scaffidi
    #16 cavlino, Aug 1, 2013
    Good update for sure. I bleed the clutch system after my pedal went flat to the floor in the spring. I was told it may be the clutch slave cylinder but bleeding it did the trick and it's been fine ever since.
     

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