How do driving styles mature?

From another post:
<<I am from the school of smoother is better and faster... and yet it is sometimes hard for me to fight the urge to throw it in there and let God figure it out, as Peter says. That used to be my overarching driving style until I became a convert - thanks primarily to the advent of modern data systems. >>


What are the phases of driver development from newbie to pro? In fishing you first get the guy who wants to catch every fish and kill it, then with time he wants only giant fish, later he appreciates nature and the outdoors and the beauty of fishing and the catch is not so important.

Do pros instructors see definate phases a driver goes through? Cars are positioning and spreading as the green flag is dropped. One driver sees a "hole" and drivers through it. Another driver sees the same hole and wonders "should I driver through it"? And still another driver says I'm not going there. The bravest driver is not always the guy who wins. Is making a choice to drive through a hole more a function of bravado or a function of maturity in the sport?

 

Yes, many stages because nearly EVERY driver gets "stuck" at particular plateaus of performance.

More information, more experience, MORE PLANNING and better execution are marks that every "maturing" driver needs to go through to get better.

More soon...

 

Certainly my experience indicates that drivers go through phases as they "mature" in their career or the activity of driving. Some phases are relatively common (such as confidence and feel) where others are more individualized (like technique and strategy.)

Age at start of and progression through the path of performance/race driving sometimes has a lot to do with how quickly some of these phases occur, as well as their duration.

To answer your question more directly and yet generally, here are a few of the common phases I have seen in drivers as they traverse their careers:

Bravado/Invincibility in Attitude
Confidence with Limited Technique
Humbleness/Respectfulness
Sponge/Take it ALL In mode (usually when given or landing on a mentor or coach)
Individual Style Identification/Forming
Confidence With Technique
Strategic Thinking

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator
rEvolution Performance Driving System

 

Interesting, Chuck. Perhaps because nearly all of my business is with older, more mature drivers, I see little bravado/invincibility (but I see a lot of naivete <grin>) and much more confidence with limited techinique. Many of these folks have been doing it for a long time, but by rote, not with a deep understanding of what they're doing or why.

These drivers want to do well, but are not (consciously or knowingly) going to go past a certain "risk-benefit" ratio in probing their limits. I don't see humbleness/respectfullness until there is a near-miss or a LOT more stick-time to allow them to realize where they really are on the ladder of progression.

I DO see a LOT of sponge/taking it all in after many drivers become daunted by the sheer scale of the technique/physics/speed challenge before them. Most have been flailing around a LONG time in search of a modicum of this knowledge.

For me, driving strategically, sublimating the actual technique at a very high level, is the ultimate draw and goal. I start working towards that goal RIGHT AWAY. Beginning with the end in mind...

Neat topic.

 

I love the sport but flail. I'm not fast but getting faster. One problem I have consistently is qualifying poorly but always making up positions in the race. Is there a consistent problem you pros see with drivers who do that?

 

Not always, but often this boils down to one of two (or sometimes both) common factors coming into play:
1. In qualifying, there are no real 'rabbits' to chase down; thereby making it tougher to stay on task. Other cars on track during qualifying are viewed as traffic instead of targets.

2. Too much self pressure (read 'thinking') and self punishment for any mistakes going on, getting in the way of optimized performance. As well, in the race, there seems to be less time to do so (overthink and beat oneself up) than in qualifying when at least mentally less is at stake and yet importance is quite high. This could be seen analogous to those who "don't take tests well" but score high otherwise.

Hope this makes sense.

Oh, and for Peter: I don't see the complete pattern I listed with every driver I work with, as of course they are all at their own seperate place when I work with them. Certainly when I work with someone over a long period of time and start when they are young it can go full course. Otherwise, I see a lot of what you mentioned as well - especially in older folks who are coming to the sport later in life. It's amazing how that self preservation thing shows up more often the older we get, isn't it?!

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator
rEvolution Performance Driving System

 

Two of the things you learn rather later in your driving career are: A) where to be slow, and B) how to use the brakes correctly.

Trying to be really fast in the slower ends of the course simply leads to trouble. Being fast in the fast stuff is where time is made.

T1 and T2 at TWS is instructive in how to use the brakes. The "school" method is to shed some speed on the banks (or not depending on bravery) and then get the car into the turn and then brake hard in a straight line. I took a ride with EFR in a challenge car. He took this thing completely differently. Down off the bank (165-ish) and then went to 10%-15% brakes for 170 yards arriving at the T2 turn in point at just the right speed (92-ish).

{I should mention that this was a car he had never driven before, on a track he had never driven before, and his reconnaissence laps were within 2 seconds of the F355 challenge lap records at that track. In addition, you could sip tea with his smooth driving style.}

 

and then you will be quicker on the stopwatch

 

...and this is why so many of us that have a lot of experience try to get people to start out driving a Miata/Formula Ford or some other lower powered cars. It's a lot easier to figure out where you are making the mistakes in a "momentum" type car than a high HP rocket. Better yet being out in a group of equal cars. You will see exactly where you are losing time when you are following someone through a few turns and all the sudden you go through the next turn and he is 30 feet further in front of you.

As for qualifiying I usually run my best times in the morning session on the 2nd or 3rd lap and after that traffic usually becomes a problem and I never have a clean track after that and the track usually just gets slower in the afternoon sessions when the sun is high. Be the first on the grid, sandbag for a couple turns and go for it while you have a clean track.

The following advice is for RACING ONLY! Not for track days!!! I treat every session like the start of a race. I go out and drive hard from the time I leave pit lane. When you start the race you get one slow pace lap and then a green flag. Too many people go out and take a many slow laps of practice or qual to build up speed. Thats not the way the race is going to work so why practice that way? You should get used to going through a turn or braking on fairly cold tires and brakes becuase thats the way you are going to start the race.

Before you go to the track look at your map and decide which turns are before the longest straights(Type I). These are your most important turns to go fast out of. Also find out which turns have another turn after them and learn why we call them "throw aways"(type III). Often you have to drive slower to make sure you are set up for the "type I" turn that follows.

 

+1,000,000

This is the biggest skill I work on with clients after they reach a certain level of competence and performance. "Practice perfect to get to perfect practice."

The optimal physics of the tires DEPEND on getting them up to temp RIGHT AWAY. You MUST become comfortable with the car sliding around a little to get the car to the point where you can TRUST it. By soft-pedaling, you delay developing that comfort zone and you lose any advantage you might have over other similar practicing individuals...

I've won a LOT of races where I didn't have fast lap but established a gap that could be maintained... That's all Schuey talks about... "establishing the gap."

 

Personally, I'm not a racer, but I have been doing TTB w/ NASA for a few years now.

I will admit it. I had reached a plateau in my performance, and had been stuck there for some time. In TTB I was running competitively in most events, coming up with fastest laps against guys that pretty much only ran in TT.

Often times, when the experienced racers joined the TT group, they would be faster, almost without fail, and honestly I couldn't figure out why. At my last event @ Summit Point, racers like Jeff Curtis consistently ran 2 to 3 seconds faster than me. It was frustrating to say the least. I was getting pretty discouraged...

After talking to my dad for a bit about it towards the end of the weekend, he told me that I need to get used to carrying more speed through the turns. I thought I was going as fast as the car would go, but I figured, what the hell, I'll give it a shot.

In the last session of the weekend, there were only about 3 of us out on track, so I had lots of open track, so I gave his suggestion a try.

In my first try in Turn 1... Holy Crap! The car held! It was obvious how much more exit speed I had... so I kept that speed up through turn 3... HOLY CRAP! The car held AGAIN!

Those two turns made me realize just how much more the car had in it... and how much more I had in me.

In under 2 laps, I'd shaved those two seconds off my lap time! It was an incredible feeling... I'd finally broken out of my rut!

It wasn't until after I had talked to someone about what I was doing that I was able to break through to my next level.

So the way I see it, is most people (like me) will likely have a gradual improvement over time until they reach some indeterminate level of performance. After that, it's going to be a much more "punctuated equilibrium" type of improvement rate, where improvements will be more incremental, but will have a nearly instantaneous effect.

 

Hah! There you go! Job security for me...

 

I have personally always been willing to hang the car out at the limit of grip at all times; in fact I kick myself if the car is not moving around underneath me at all times. Unfortunately, I did not do so terribly smoothly and so I could be fast, but not consistently so.

My first plateau was, oddly, after I won my first race. I became a real menace at that point, thinking I could win 'em all, if I drove hard enough. I had my worst wrecks in this mode.

A big breakthrough that really helped me was to just settle down and accept that the car, or me, just was not going to win a particular race and to drive the car as fast as it would realistically go. I have found that I almost always move up a position or more when driving this way, and have won races from as far back as 5th on the grid.

Currently I try to focus on using every bit of available grip, but being smooth. Trail-braking - and I mean really doing it well while using all available grip - is my current bugaboo.

I'd say I am at the sponge stage, still trying to learn everything I can from every driver I see or speak with and seeing if it works for me. I have had some coaching, too, but only from drivers who are faster than I am. I have to see it to believe it, I guess.

 

Good post! Nice description of maturation, too. I used to crash early on...

Reality checks are totally important. It means you're thinking, instead of forcing.

Trailbraking is best achieved and used as a tool at slower corners to effect a positve direction change. This is why a G-G graph or a graphic replay of a friction circle is SO important to be able to show on the data, it's the only concrete, objective way to measure whether you are using "all available grip," which is the principal reason other drivers are faster than you!

I think (and hope) everyone who is a serious driver remains a serious student. I used to think Jaime Alguasari was hopelessly young, pig-headed and naive, but after Australia when he said "I learned SO much from following MS" and then has driven exceptionally well since then, I'm convinced that even those at the highest level, especially those at the highest level are still sponges!

 

using a skid pad / parking lot for training does wonders

 

Lots of lessons learned (not necessarily from my own mistakes, though). Just watching other drivers make them has been enough for me. For a start...

Can't win a race in the 1st turn. But, you can sure lose it there.

As mentioned, slower, smoother inputs. Includes brakes, gas as well as steering.

When wanting to get around slower drivers, don't over-drive to do it. Push them to make a mistake, then slide through. You may lose time this way, but it's a whole lot less expensive in the end.

CW

 

OK...I buy the concept of being able to put in a good outlap. I buy the idea of practice as you race. But as an old guy but youngish racer how do you develop those fast outlap skills without looking like a complete idiot spinning out on the second lap of practice where prudence is to build up speed for the weekend? The way I see it you can build the skill by doing it and looking like an idiot for a while until you develop the skill. Then honing the outlap by fast out practice make sense. I think the learning curve could be painful.

 

Don't try this at home!!! Yes you should learn to be consistant before trying my suggestion and I did say "RACING ONLY" so I don't want to hear about some guy crashing on the first lap in his wifes BMW on a track day. If you know you are not the fastest guy out there than I commend you for recognizing that and you should go at your own pace. The OP presented a problem and I was giving him a piece of advice. Unfortunatly regardless of what your pace is, come race day they are going to give you a pace lap behind some pace car that is going too slow for you to warm up the car and the green flag is going to drop and if you hang back going into the first turn someone is going to move into that opening and brake hard.

 

The next two seconds a lap will be come a lot harder and it will become harder to find out where you could go faster. When you start looking for tenths of a second I will often forget about the rest of the track and focus on one or two sections at a time. By slowing a little through the turns I am not focusing on I can take some time to think about what is happening in the spots I am concentrating on. The best way to see your mistakes is by following someone in an identical racecar and if he/she pulls ten feet on you coming out of a turn you will see where the problem is.

If you have radios having a crew member do segment times in a turn or section really helps.

 

I race Formula Renault and the cars can be really hard to handle on cold slicks. Key point is to get the car moving around under acceleration but carefully. Find the limit of grip and play with it - the rate of progression on acceleration from apex to exit. Cars brake surprisingly well even with cold tyres.

Cold tyres really show skill level. Good drivers are much much faster than less capable drivers and much more in control even when the car is moving.

I have forced myself to push really hard on cold tyres and it makes a huge difference. Getting fastest lap by third or fourth lap is much much preferable to taking forever to "build up". My driving coach always says to start fast and get faster!!!

 

Funny this thread should be rekindled since I just got back from racing. Part of My original quote:"Do pros instructors see definate phases a driver goes through? Cars are positioning and spreading as the green flag is dropped. One driver sees a "hole" and drivers through it. Another driver sees the same hole and wonders "should I driver through it"? And still another driver says I'm not going there. The bravest driver is not always the guy who wins. Is making a choice to drive through a hole more a function of bravado or a function of maturity in the sport? "

Today i cracked a brake rotor and missed qualifying so I had to start my race at the end. My race group is typical SCCA with mixed speeds of cars. At the green flag I blazed a trail and passed everyone except car #3 by the 3rd corner. The braking zone is at about 130mph down to about 50 to enter off banking to an infield section (AAA California Speedway). Car #3 is notoriously fast and devious. I had the speed to late brake him but knowing the skill of #3 and cold tires I chickened out. I'm not sure if that is maturity, having no talent, or just being a *****. I think it is all three. So after entering the infield I passed #3. Back on the banking we are pushing very hard and I think I can stay ahead of him. #3 later brakes me despite me making myself very wide, and shows me how it is done on that nasty entry. The pass was so clean it took me by surprise. Geeze he's good and I suck! I repass him in the infield and put the hammer down. This time I make myself really wide...I ain't falling for that again. I beat him and take 3rd place and started last but honestly I would have rather learned how to make that amazing pass. What he showed me today was that I may be faster but he is a better driver. That's what I want to be.

 

DM18 and FBB have really good points. As I've gotten more "mature," I'm more calculating, more comfortable with putting in a fast lap right away and I've been able to divorce my emotional "fight or flight" response from aggressive moves by others by just buckling down and getting the position back or just driving better than they do with fewer errors.

Here, I start third, am manhandled back to fifth, take back fourth, then third, then the leader falls off and I pass on the next lap for overall lead. It's all about driving as clean as you can, as fast as you can, as SOON as you can.

Linky is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lQvaepWLS8

 

FBB, the situation you describe has several factors. One I like to call "the hammer factor". A friend of mine likes to describe this phenom this way: "Road racers make better drivers, circle track drivers make better racers." What we are referring to here is the intestinal fortitude to stick it in there to take the position and let things sort themselves out. Also in some cases, being willing to move someone (only slightly but just enough) out of the way.

I tend to take a more subtle approach to that last part in general but if we're racing late models or modifieds... well, when in Rome...

Anyway, my point here is that one can be over calculating and/or over patient - leading to a loss of position and potentially the race. I've certainly been guilty of this. Pressing people and waiting for them to make a mistake that never comes or is positionally where it can't be taken advantage of. I appreciate your demeanor of wanting to make those clean passes like your rival in your example, I truly do - quite admirable! But at the end of the day, you finished ahead of them, ultimately achieving the goal you came to reach. Making any team managers, sponsors, fans, and perhaps your pocket book or mantle much happier. What will ultimately be remembered is where you finished, not how you got there.

Of course all that being said, you should always be working to improve your skill and cleanliness of technique. And, that will come every time you get in the seat over time.

A prime example of both the patience and ballsy method is displayed in Peter's video where he waits patiently behind the yellow car for over a lap, getting the benefit of a draft and preserving his energy and car. But a little later, he takes no prisoners at the entry of T14a (Roller Coaster) and assumes a completely different line (at the surprise of the yellow car driver) to stuff it into the corner early, brake late and confounds the yellow car, forcing him to stay wide and off the power. Bye-bye yellow car... If you want to stick your nose in my side, go ahead but you're going in the grass first and I'm going to lean on you the whole way to do my best to put you in the grass while I stay on the black sticky stuff; otherwise... bye-bye yellow car.
BTW: Nice execution of the straight entry line into 14a that we so vehemently attempt to teach some others there Peter!

While I'll be the first to tell you that I'm in the "Randy Pobst camp" of all contact should be unintentional, it is called "racing" not "driving" for a reason. Being polite or studious will get you passed.

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator
rEvolution Performance Driving System

 

Great job!!!

I find that I am best to accept whatever I can produce in my 3rd or 4th lap of qualifying. After that I am better to focus on some offline braking points and exits that are likely to be useful in defending or attacking. This usually pays huge dividends and surprisingly few people seem to worry about this. I might also focus on the corners before the long straights as they will be crucial to any attempt to pass. I don't care about the times after I have my qualifying lap in the bag - only knowledge. This also makes those last precious laps before the race positive and focussed. Before when I pushed until the end I might gain one spot at most and learn nothing that would be useful in lap 1 or thereafter in the race. Totally different mindset that works for me. It also helps with my visualisation of how T1 and thereafter might play out to have a feeling for what offline might hold instore. Visualisation with a lot of detail is crucial for me

 

Wow! that showed great racecraft and maturity driving firmly but never in anger. Very calculating. I hope to be like one day. Your strategy played perfectly into your hand as each guy ahead of you was relatively within striking distance of the guy in front. Can you comment on strategy when the car ahead of you is difficult to pass but you know you are faster and ultimately get by him; yet the guy in front of him is really your challenge and if he gets away too far you will never get close enough to challenge him for position? Do you stay the course on strategy treat each guy like you are only racing him or do you take more risk because "no guts no glory?"