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Camel build

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by snj5, Sep 17, 2009.

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  1. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    #251 snj5, May 4, 2010
    In the book "Aircraft Weight and Balance Control", by Henri G. D'Estout, it is stated that when weight and balance info is not available for a particular aircraft the following CG limits can be used safely:

    Biplanes: 22% to 34% of MAC (Mean Aerodynamic Chord)

    High wing monoplanes: 22% to 34% of MAC

    Mid wing monoplanes: 18% to 30% of MAC

    Low wing monoplanes: 18% to 30% of MAC
     
  2. Bob Parks

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    #252 Bob Parks, May 5, 2010
    Russ, I assume that the figure for the biplane CG is for a biplane with stagger. Without stagger I think the range would be different. A non-staggered biplane should have a bit more incidence in the lower wing so that it will stall before the upper wing.
     
  3. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #253 tazandjan, May 5, 2010
    Bob- Camels have significant stagger. About the only WW-I fighter without significant stagger was the Spad VII/XIII, and that big lump of a Hispano-Suiza took care of that problem.

    Taz
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  4. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    #254 snj5, May 5, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Got a very nice reply from Gene DeMarco today at TVAL on their NZ Camel weight and balance. The short story is the empty weight is 1158 pounds with a moment arm off of the firewall of 21.65 ". They only use a front tank where the ammo bay was (like Robert's design of our plane) although they have a rear tank installed. This gives an EMPTY (no fuel, no pilot) CG of 27.6 MAC. Add a 200# pilot and min fuel for the most aft CG case and you are at 31.8% MAC. Fill the front tank and it works out to 30.3% MAC. He says the plane flies great. Many thanks to Gene for this unique information. Great guy.

    Spoke with Fred Murrin today who said his Camel replica was about the same, and was "docile" to fly. Another great guy, by the way.

    The universally praised great flying Airdrome DVII of Butch Whitlock, a similarly American sized pilot, flies around at 31% MAC. Yet another great guy, by the way.

    Again, using the latest gross wild worst case guestimates, the EMPTY weight and arm for our Airdrome Camel might be 867 pounds@19" and about 22.7% MAC. Add a 300# pilot and min fuel for the most aft CG case and you are at 31% MAC. Fill the front tank and it works out to 29% MAC

    Here also is the latest photo update as or 1918 Ruston built Sopwith Camel D1845, aircraft C of 208 Sqn, takes shape...
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  5. Bob Parks

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    #255 Bob Parks, May 5, 2010
    I figured 1'-8" from the firewall. That's 20 inches. Within one inch of the actual NZ Camel. This can be a lot of fun and Russ is going to have pretty much all of it and that's good.
     
  6. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    #256 snj5, May 5, 2010
    Like I tell folks about theT-6, T-28 and warbirds (even replicas) in general: These things are much more fun when shared.
     
  7. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    #257 snj5, May 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    1918 208 Sqn markings, Ruston Proctor D1845, plane 'C', kind of...

    The flash brings out the green, but in person it's more brownish
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  8. Bob Parks

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    #258 Bob Parks, May 12, 2010
    Seeing this airplane reaching the end of the building process I was thinking about how it will handle in flight. I flew Pete Bowers Flybaby biplane and recall how nimble and responsive it was. It had a 26 ft. wing spread and was fairly light and only had 85 HP but I imagine that the Camel that Russ is building could fly very much like the Bowers. Slightly larger ( 28 ft. wing span) and more power. Should be a lot of fun.
     
  9. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    #259 snj5, May 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Bob has correctly identified the primary mission of this aircraft - the raw fun of flying. There is the history part for those of us who like that as well, but it's about the flying, feeling the wind, all of that stuff. And at 8 gallons an hour with a compass, watch and map to guide me.
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  10. Sfumato

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    #260 Sfumato, May 12, 2010
    Way cool Russ. 8gph, that's about what the T does taxing. Call when you're in town.
     
  11. Bob Parks

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    #261 Bob Parks, May 12, 2010
    THAT is a beautiful picture ! Thanks for posting. I always did like the SPAD.
    SWitches
     
  12. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #262 tazandjan, May 12, 2010
    Mark Miller is one of the most talented computer artists out there. His work looks like a combination of the best oil painters' work and a photograph.

    Taz
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  13. Bob Parks

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    #263 Bob Parks, May 12, 2010
    My first reaction to that picture was the sound of the wires and the wind. Then the smell of the hot exhaust ring or stacks mixed with unique odor of the exhaust that only aircraft engines produce. Then the partnership with the flying machine with which we could enjoy the reason for being there.
    My late oldest sister couldn't understand why ANYBODY could enjoy " flopping around in an airplane". She never knew the joy of formating with another or the thrill of chasing your cohort in a dizzying run in a medium in which there are no boundaries but one, and that was one that you made certain was far below. But that same boundary at times was a flirt like the Sirens of Greek mythology that drew you down to play a game of chance , a gamble that sometimes collects the loser. But that is why some of us live to fly because for us there is no living without the joy of flight.
     
  14. rob lay

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    #264 rob lay, May 13, 2010
    you continually amaze me Russ.
     
  15. Bob Parks

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    #265 Bob Parks, May 13, 2010
    I wondered about the uncharacteristic mottling on the sides of the fuselage, the grayed-out center of the cockade, the peculiar rendition of the wheel spokes showing through the fabric, and the lack of reflected blue sky coloring in the aluminum cowl.
    Still a neat picture.
    Switches
     
  16. Bob Parks

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    #266 Bob Parks, May 13, 2010
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    An early attempt.
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  17. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    #267 snj5, May 13, 2010
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  18. GrigioGuy

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    #268 GrigioGuy, May 13, 2010
    Woohoo! Looks great :D
     
  19. Spasso

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    #269 Spasso, May 13, 2010
    WOW, just WOW!
     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #270 tazandjan, May 13, 2010
    Russ- Congratulations. She looks beautiful. Back from my business trip and have all my supplies, so DVD on the way tomorrow or Sat. Do not remember if all those photos will fit on one DVD or not. Colin is not as fanatical as I am. I have a couple of photos over 1 gig after scanning.

    Taz
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  21. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    #271 snj5, May 14, 2010
    Thanks Taz.
    This plane is actually going to receive some mnor upgrades over the next 2 - 3 years based on all of your photos as we find details that can add to the little plane.

    For example, while we have a 90" Culver propeller for initial development., folks at the woodenpropeller forum have put me in contact with Chad Wille, who can make a much more accurate propeller replica.
     
  22. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    #272 snj5, May 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  23. Bob Parks

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    #273 Bob Parks, May 14, 2010
    It raises the ol' heart rate to see that project almost coming to life, especially that wicker seat. Keep the pics coming.
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  24. Spasso

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    #274 Spasso, May 14, 2010
    Russ,
    Could you please elaborate on the custom 1930's vehicle shown on the right side of the above picture? Do I see saddle tanks?
     
  25. Bob Parks

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    #275 Bob Parks, May 14, 2010
    If I'm not mistaken that's Russ's Fartfire Four. Not many of them left, I hear.
     
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