348 new head gasket leaking coolant

I talked to Dave Helms the other day and he said the latest batch of OEM 348 head gaskets are all leaking. You might want to PM him and ask what solution they came up with at their shop.

 

My 348 has been at Scuderia Rampante for about 4 months now. Part of the delay is due to exactly what you describe. The Elrinig gaskets are crap and the engineers at Elring don't want to hear it. They insist there is nothing wrong with the gaskets even though failures are occuring and being reported. Dave went through two sets on my 348 before moving forward with his own design. The Elring gaskets seeped water even with no pressurization on the cooling system. Dave's gaskets were pressure tested to 20 psi with no leakage and left at 12 psi overnight with no leakage. Make sure you report the failure to the supplier. That is the only way the word might have an effect back at the manufacturer. Now just hope you don't have to replace a cam chain tensioner. They are a unique design for the 348 and not a one is available on the planet.

 

It's my understanding that their chief engineer at Elring is a guy named Lee King.

 

Didn't he start Sofa King?

 

The WHAT!!! Is that tongue firmly planted?

 

http://www.sangalliguarnizioni.com/inglese/ferrari.html

 

Elring head gaskets in the 348 and up sets. Been there a year ago

 

I have had amazingly good luck with these. Any they will custom with just a pattern

MLS head gaskets:

http://www.cometic.com/faq.aspx

 

Nice folks but... no silicone beads (read 2v frozen on heads and coolant creep relived in time) and a completely different design with no reinforcement as per the OEM design which affects the compressibility and was a design factor in the engines.

There is a whole lot more to a head gasket design that just fitting over the studs and diameter of the big hole, the game has completely changed. Aluminum is a fluid material that moves, expands and contracts a great deal, rotational torque spec studs have a yield point and a dozen other non spoken of factors are engineered into a head gasket these days. Change any one variable and two dozen others are affected and the snowball is pushed off the top of the hill.

Make one too stiff and non compressible and the block main bores will go square when torqued. Make it too soft and it will not be resilient enough to follow a fluid aluminum block and head as they expand and contract, been there on both extreemes. The formula to calculate the head clamping force is complex enough it has to be done in a CAD program and that's before you input any variables of which there are many. Remember, its all a package design.

Four decades of torquing these heads on (myself alone, add to that other Pro's I have discussed this with and you have 100's of years of hands on experience just on these cars). I have a whole bunch of guys who were not even crapping green when I started doing it telling me I don't know how to do it..."We have never heard of this problem before you", OK..... sure. It has cheated an F40 owner out of the use of his car for better than a year now while I tried to talk with the Elring engineers both in the US and the Motherland to get this resolved. All I get is a CYA answer's so we had to move on and go a different direction while offering my apologies to my F40 customer. Others have run into this before myself did but their methods of dealing with it at the time are unacceptable by any standard and are now having to be dealt with. One never has to apologize for doing it right, that is not the case with 'quick fixes'. I am into this hundreds of unpaid hours so far and am just now getting out of the quick fix phase and into the testing phase, there is a whole lot more work to be done.

 

Another wonderful situation we had to deal with. They fixed the oil pump chain tensioner because it was something that came from another marque already in production.

I am hoping to have this dealt with by later next week on a prototype basis and shortly after that on a production basis. Another case of first glance ideas and real engineered answer's being about a half a year apart. Chas has proven his patience beyond anything that should be required of an owner while waiting for us to deal with these situation's.

Another case where in a perfect world one could expect to find a need for what, 4 of these a year? Now there is a component you wont find a whole lot of folks tripping over themselves and lining up to make, but without it... cant put a failing one back in! All things considered, the OEM ones held up 'fairly' well but now being unavailable (3 dozen overseas calls verified that) they had to be reengineered using updated materials to deal with the new oils and a host of other variables.

 

I had no clue there was any more to it than sealing a hole. It's great to have you here giving us an education. I'm always amazed at what I don't know. In martial arts circles we would say "time for me to go back and eat more rice". Can you tell us a little bit more about why Elring is having issues with a technology that I thought was a no brainer? Interesting topic from this part replacer's point of view. I think I'm giving you a new name...Professor Helms. You know if you taught a class a CU Boulder there would be lines out the door.

Sincerely,

Green Crapper

 

Well said, Green Crapper!

Seriously, I think alot of people overlook/don't understand the time and effort Dave puts into making things better for these cars. And he does it all by investing his time and money into things that most people would take for granted. Sure, the OEM style rubber hoses will get the job done, but Dave is willing to step out on a limb and make far superior and longer lasting parts. Too many people are content with the status quo, Dave wants "the best" available.
I try to talk to him on a regular basis and he always kinda keeps me in the loop of new things he has in development. Everything he does is going to make these cars more reliable/better running and easier/cheaper to keep running.
Too bad I'm so far away, or I'm sure we'd be having think tank sessions at the local pub!
Maybe I can talk Jetfixr into flying me to the Rockies sometime soon.....that could be scary...."Kris, bar the door, the 'Fixers are coming to town!!" Hahahaha

 

Prepared a Sunday gourmet meal(chilledog w/onions and Fritos) and sat down to enjoy and read this thread....was doing good til I got to the "Green Crapper" and almost puked. Thanks for ruinning my dinner.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas-3
Now just hope you don't have to replace a cam chain tensioner. They are a unique design for the 348 and not a one is available on the planet.

Originally Posted by Saint Bastage
The WHAT!!! Is that tongue firmly planted?

Seriously, Ferrari part number 147338, try to find one... really ... prove me wrong! How do you think the cam belt system is driven? It is a double row chain off of the crankshaft and it requires a chain tensioner, much like the oil pump chain tensioner.
I am truly blessed that Dave Helms and his crew are in the "neighborhood". Without Dave's ingenuity my 348 would be sitting for a very long time. The guy is truly amazing. He has been keeping my 308 running superbly since roughly 2002 and now has taken on my 348 to boot. I wouldn't trust these cars to anyone else.

 

For my 348 major a year ago, I installed a new tensioner for my oil pump chain, and didn't give a second thought that they may not be readily available. Glad to know we have a guy like Dave helping to watch our back.

 

I don't think there is an issue with the oil pump chain tensioner as it is shared among other models. The part that is now NLA for the 348 is the cam chain tensioner.

 

All pointing out yawning....

Its really hard to get all worked up about hose, gaskets, tensioners...... that is until you cant buy one of any quality. The fun projects had to wait until we dealt with longevity / reliability issues. Its a tough pill to swallow to maintain focus on things as mundane as the above but with power and performance comes heat and extra stress's. Unless the base "Package" is bomb proof reliable, the "Performance Projects" would only find the next weak points and provide another area of frustration. Safety, then Reliability and then Performance.... tough to work through the first two when that carrot is hanging on the stick. We are right on the edge of seeing our efforts come full circle. I was told by my hose engineers that the first batch of molded hoses, made off our tooling I posted photo's of this winter is now in route to me, Only 5 months behind schedule. There were a few redesigns required due to the tight radius on some of the hoses for the 348 and 355's as I insisted on all known and predicted problems being dealt with in full prior to production. Not an undertaking for those looking for instant gratification or quick production! If the fit is as expected we can have a few more tools made up for the less needed hoses and put that all to rest and move on to the fun stuff.

Gaskets. The real problem is in time Elring will get this little internal problem worked out. I have an entirely new design all drawn, 85+% of the engineering done, everything in Cad with needed materials identified and located. Once Elring decides to fix the problem, no one would want a new gasket designed by a little company. Elring is an OEM supplier, they must be the better choice, I have always thought so in the past. Sadly it would be a loosing project to make regardless of the 'need' right now. I am learning a good deal about making parts for a small market like this, there are good reasons why few go there.

""Maybe I can talk Jetfixr into flying me to the Rockies sometime soon.....that could be scary...."Kris, bar the door, the 'Fixers are coming to town!!" Hahahaha ""

What would be "Scary" is the damage Mrs. Flyboy and Kris could do shopping together in Aspen now that Mr. Flyboy has an extended cargo hold on the Gossamer Albatross... there's some payback coming our way.

""Sunday gourmet meal(chilledog w/onions and Fritos)"" The Breakfast of Champions! Chase that with a little 'home brew' from your backyard..... who needs Ethanol ?! Going "Green" are we?

 

Oops, got my chains mixed up. I replaced both during my major, so I'm still kind of shocked they are now NLA!

Sorry your car is being held up, but Dave certainly is a guy that I'm sure can get things taken care of!
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Dave, I"m sure many of us will support your efforts at small production. You can count on me for hoses during my next 348 major!

 

Me too

 

I do very much appreciate the sarcasm. I was perhaps not clear enough.

There are so many people here that believe the cams are exclusively belt driven I thought it would be interesting to poke a bit Hence the "tongue in cheek" comment. Apparently...I missed. Sorry you didn't get it.

We ALL agree regarding Dave.