My idea of an unmaintained car. I can and will never understand why people think this is looking after a car. That car was NEVER raced originally looking like the piece of **** it now does. Jim with his P3/4 and P412 and GT40 looks after them properly. The wrinkles and orginal dents (Bruce's helmet on his GT40) are still there but the cars look pretty much as they would have in their hey day. Compare that to the Bugatti which has just been left to slowly die ... cosmetically. Not right IMO. Pete
That car is in top mechanical condition and is raced. Every scratch has been earned and has a story. Personally I don't like the Joan Rivers effect Odd that you should mention Jim. When I posted these pictures originally his comments were entirely positive if I remember correctly. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
So the owner excepts that the mechanical things can be changed or maintained and yet the body is some how different? Just confusing to me ... thus what we have is a properly maintained mechanical engine/gearbox/brakes/etc and yet the body has been sent to the sin bin and does not get the same love. I'm definitely not into restoring cars that don't need to be, but cars should be kept as they were. Every single modern scratch is just ruining what it should look like. Just like if Jim bumped #0854 into a work bench and put a scratch in it, that scratch would be meaningless ... thus fix it. Jim's car history has a short period of relevance, ie. the 60's when it raced. Nothing afterwards matters a damn. Same with this Bugatti, when it raced in the late 20's or 30's it earned it's important history. Since then who gives a flying fnck, thus all that modern damage should be constantly removed so it stays looking exactly as it did when it finished it's last race in the 30's, keeping all the relevant damage but nothing more. It's wonderful that it keep racing, but I can tell you that the next purchaser will not be remotely interested in any scratches caused by current American (?) owner, but will be very excited about any caused by say Varzi ... it only makes sense, so get rid of any modern damage/wear please I say . Pete
...and here is clearly the mistake! I think its almost forgotten, that this 20ies-, 30ies-race cars NEVER had that look that we describe today as "Concours condition". Look at old photos you can see, that Mercedes fabled 300 SLR of Moss on the ramp in Brecia in `55 was not in that "restored" condition as it shows up today! Also - what do you call "modern" on cars like this Bugatti? Cratches etc. that came in the 50ies or 60ies on it??? That period -important or not- also belongs to the history of that great racer! And what is if a "modern" damage is over an important part of the car that clearly document its history (I know of a very good Bugatti that had its original registration painted on the rear! But this section was severely damaged and could not be saved when repaired!) Those cars needs to be preserved as they were. Every ramp in the 20ies, 30ies or 50ies is more important than any ramp in Pebble Beach! A restoration today is needed when the original specification had changed significantly and/or the overall condition is in very bad shape, perhaps 10 minutes before fading away. I know of a Ferrari 250 MM that still had its original (!) Ferrari Scuderia shields on both front fenders. The longtime owner did everything to preserve this important details when he restored the car 15 years ago. He sold it about 10 years ago - and the new owner restored the car again and replaced the original logo by new ones! I agree that its sometimes very hard to deside if a resto is necessary - but sometimes this decision is taken too fast! Ciao! Walter
The 250MM in question is #0298MM. About the "restoration" of the cars, the same happened with many WW2 aircraft.
Tom, thank you for the invitation. I certainly would be happy to have a good chat with you someday, or even do some Ferrari business. I am sincerely curious (really) about how a Ferrari enthusiast (I will take your word for it) like yourself can gut a perfectly good GTE so that somebody else can build a fake. That would be a fascinating discussion! I have however no interest at all in meeting, under any circumstances, a person who paints a 410 in yellow.
To each his own of course but I know that when I see a car like this I get a visceral sense of history that no cosmetically correct car can impart. As with people every scar tells a story and as they say "it's only original once".
didn't enzo have the factory paint a racecar yellow w/ green interior? would anybody change that history/color? ed
I have read through this thread and I do understand the disappointment of yanking the engine (the ad says the tranny with overdrive stays with the car) from this perfectly good car, restored to a high level no less. However I also understand the want to recreate something prized, but unattainable, out of the damaged/wrecked carcass of something that can be recycled (if you want to think about recycling a vintage Ferrari). I see and hear both sides and can appreciate the passion it evokes. But my question has to do with "What is to be done with this car less its engine now. I am not versed on the current prices of 250GTE 2+2's but someone said it recently sold in restored condition for approx $120K. If that is correct then I would assume that this would be an average price for a restored GTE. If it costs $160K to purchase an engine from Classice (sp?) and you can purchase these remains for $54K, then you would have a GTE with an invested value of $214K and auction value of still around $120K. So I doubt someone is going to do that. So what can realistically be done with the car now. Can used 250 engines be acquired and rebuild/installed for less than $66K. If so, then I would think that would be the next best thing to the original engine. If a 250 engine cannot be acquired, then what. Back in the day, a Ferrari with a blown engine was often replaced with a ford or chevy V-8. How would the F-car community feel about a vintage american V-8 installed in the car. It least the car can be put back on the road and enjoyed by someone. I would be interested in hearing from others as to what would be an acceptable course of action for the car now as we have heard greatly from everyone as to the travesty that has already occurred. I would love to see this car back on the road, in some form or fashion as opposed to sitting in a warehouse, engineless, slowly rusting away or simply parted out until nothing was left. Thoughts? Thanks Charlie
That is the crux of the problem. Apparently buying this GTE and removing the engine for a net cost of $66K is cheaper than simply finding a used engine and rebuilding it. During the height of the real estate boom a few years ago it was not uncommon to see someone pay close to $2 million here in Connecticut for a nice, but older, house and then tear it down to put up a much larger and newer McMansion. That activity seems to have cooled off quite a bit since the bubble days and now a house at that price is more likely to be remodeled rather than demolished. It is a shame to see such a nice car diminished in this way and I can only hope that someday, after the market calms down a bit, it will have its correct engine again.
He did, and as far as I know, it is still with the original family and they have kept it in that color combination. 375MM, 0460AM-- maybe someone can find a picture.
Pic of 0460AM. Bought new by Williamine Day of Nevada, still owned by her son Robert Day... Image Unavailable, Please Login
That's a little different as 0460AM was originally built with those colors at Pinin Farina. No 410 Sport - however - was ever solid yellow until 0596CM got repainted. Maybe it's me, but my hair goes up everytime I see pics of it. Best wishes, Kare
Ever see the movie wall street? Whenever there is something that people regard as valuable that has, as a part of it, something that is more valuable than the whole, there is a dangerous imbalance. In this case, the power train of these cars is more valuable than the rest of the car. The only long term cures are to make the power trains less valuable (make quality repro parts that people accept), make the cars more valuable, or accept that they will be harvested for their parts. You can not beat gravity. The remedy to this specific situation is to buy the car, put another motor in it, and drive it until an appropriate and correct motor can be sourced later. This is the same thing that kept many of the antique racers on the roads and out of crushers in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, when it wasn't financially sane to repair a pooched motor correctly because the car was "just a wallerd out old race car". A 330 motor, or perhaps a carbed 400, are probably the most reasonable choices, though anything would be reasonable so long as it doesn't really trash the car putting it in. If someone gives the new owner lip over it "not being a real ferrari because the motor's not a ferrari motor" just show them the ebay listing and tell them to stuff it.
Couldn't have said it better myself - which I couldn't have..... I have been following on eBay this TDF Blue 456 6-speed (When's the last time you saw a 6-speed 456?) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferrari-456-1995-456-GT-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem335f0e05f3QQitemZ220638086643QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks Think about this: 400+ HP, modern v-12 Ferrari, with 6-speed and COMPLETE drive train, COMPLETE suspension and brakes, and COMPLETE electronics with wiring harness! Yes, that means an intellectual leap of thinking of a complete running 456 (with a salvage title) as a "donor" car....... Might might make the basis for a fun, Ferrari track-day car. Might provide a donor drive train for a hot rod, with proper AC, heat, and ABD. Might make a fun daily driver, that you could flog without mercy, maybe with huge tires and loud exhaust. But, in 30 years would you wake up with the sinking feeling that you had "killed" a real Ferrari, because the eventual owner of that same 456 had re-fit with a period BMW v-12, costing less, with cheaper parts.......? My head hurts.......
Modern cars are doomed, especially modern exotic cars. They are subject to emissions laws and safety inspections that are contingent on having electronics that work properly. Those electronics have all sorts of intellectual property in them that currently make it impossible to "duplicate" them -- you can't just accurately mic an ECU and turn out a new one with a CNC mill and a chunk of aluminum. Without vendor support for these electronics, you're simply doomed (if you want to comply with emissions laws). Is it possible to duplicate this stuff? Maybe, with enough resources *and* lawyers *and* you can get the various government agencies to put stickers on your replacement bits to say "this complies with our laws regarding emissions." Better to wait for flying cars and hoverboards.
I remember talking with a knowledgeable person about this some years ago. This "friend" was a full time real estate developer here in Florida, and part time exotic car fan. In his spare time, he made crankshafts for powerful cars. He was working with Lingenfelter on a twin-turbo kit for the Ferrari 550 Maranello. After the relatively simple part of designing the mechanical system of tubes, turbo's etc, came the all-important question of the electronics. In most high-performance turbo applications, spark lead, injection volume, and throttle position become the most important features. To do this, you have to be able to either re-program the "host" ECU, or develop a "stand alone" system that will handle those chores, often leaving the “host” system partially in place to handle the “day-to-day” chores of battery charging, and door chimes. Apparently, the problem for my friend was actually “locating” the 550 ECU. In our last conversation, he mentioned that Ferrari seemed to have “outsourced” many of the ECU functions to other electronic devices within the car. Like having part of the ignition timing functions “hidden” in the passenger window lift computer. Without factory help and approval, they gave up……
I personally think it's far more likely that some US states will require emissions control on all vehicles regardless of age within 10 years. It's a way of passing a law which affects almost no one, offers little benefit, yet they can point to it and say "look, we are doing something about global worming".
