Anybody who believes that Ferrari are the only ones who use this type of tactic are living in cloud cuckoo land!. They all do it and any team manager who says he doesn't is a liar!. Ron Dennis used to boast and make a big thing about not having team orders in his team, but as David Coulthard found out during his time there, that was not the case. Eddie (I hate Ferrari) Jordan boasts regularily on the BBC coverage that he never employed team orders (really Eddie, so why wasn't the faster Ralf Schumacher allowed to pass Damon Hill for the win at Spa in '98?). What really gets Me though, is the number of people who's biggest complaint is not that Ferrari employ these tactics, but that they're not subtle enough about it!. Had Massa locked up his brakes at the hairpin and run wide giving Alonso the lead then loads of people wouldn't bat an eyelid about it, they'd just put it down to Massa not being able to handle the pressure and then they'd be calling for him to be replaced ASAP. As it is, people here are calling for him to be sacked because he took one for the team and Alonso, UNBELIEVABLE! If anything, Ferrari's biggest crime is not the employing of team tactics, but being to open about it!. However, should Alonso go on to win the WDC by 3 points or thereabout, then this will be one of the smartest moves they've made all year!. And in all honesty, is what happened today that much different to McLaren sending Hamilton out on a final qualifying run to snatch pole from Vettel by not putting enough fuel in the car to get back to the pits? (as was the case in Canada), I don't think so. As for those on here slating Ferrari and their actions to win races, if you don't like it, feel free to go and support one of the other teams on the grid, just don't be too surprised to find out that they employ the exact same tactics as Ferrari but are just not as honest about it!.
I remember of the penalty inflicted upon Ken Tyrrell one year for cheating. His team was stripped of all the points collected during the season. That seems to be what Ferrari deserves for having so blatantly suggested the finishing order to its drivers, albeit by using coded message. Massa making way for Alonso was a carbon copy of Barrichello's move in Austria several years to let Schumacher go by. The FIA's credibility is on the line here. If it doesn't act, F1 will be considered a 'dog and ponny show'.
Hey, they gave Massa a chance to be faster than Alonso and he couldn't do it. You know what?..too freaking bad. The only thing they did is let Alonso pass without the chance of taking out both cars or giving Red Bull a chance to catch up. Webber has been complaining for weeks he's been treated like number 2. Isn't THAT team orders? No penalty. And, Massa could have done a more diplomatic job of admitting that Alonso WAS INDEED FASTER.
Massa was as bad at making the situation worse as whoever is in charge of the communication. And he knew Alonso was faster and with him ahead they would have a better chance at getting both championships.
Sorry, But if alonso was faster... he would have been in front. No matter how you cut it,... during the race,...the only thing alonso was faster at was whining.
not only that, he will be under even more pressure since *HE* was the guy that gave the order for Rubens to move over for Schumi, and if he lets this one slide, it will be seen as nothing more than blatantly helping Ferrari, his former employer. He's in a tight spot on this one.
You must be joking. The legal system doesn't work like that, nor does the stewarding system in F1. I've spent a fair amount of time in courts and talked to a lot of defendants. There are always some really naive ones who think "well, if they didn't SEE me do it, they can't prove I did it!". It doesn't work like that. They don't need to see a notarized piece of paper signed by both drivers and Domenicali agreeing to move aside to let the other win. They just need to feel comfortable that it's the case. Everyone knows Massa was told to move over for Alonso. It was crystal clear from the words used as well as both drivers' body language after the incident. To suggest that it's not enough proof and therefore Ferrari can't be 'convicted' is nonsense.
Sorry, he WOULD have been in front anyway eventually. It was clear that Alonso was faster. If Massa REALLY wanted to stick it to Ferrari's decision, he should have stuck is nose under Alonso's rear wing the rest of the race. What did he do? He fell back and barely kept 2nd. Awwww... his "feelings" were hurt! Poor boy! Maybe he couldn't see well enough from through the tears. This is a professional? A professional would have shown the team they were wrong and not whined about it afterwards.
Alonso famously held off a faster Schumacher for numerous laps a few years ago to help win himself a WDC. Simply being faster is a world apart from being ahead... if it wasn't so, we could just hand out the trophies after qualifying.
I promised myself never to respond to any of your "wild" hand grenade posts anymore but here goes: For what???? What did HE do?
Then why do it? I acrually agree with you that massa would likely have made a mistake an alonso would have gotten by... but I thought this was racing,... not ballet. I expect a champion to use his skill,... not ask to be let by. by that standard I could be WDC! IMHO Massa was far more prefessional than Alonso. He did what was asked. Alonso couldn't pass someone in a fair fight so he had his mommy tell them to move over. Alonso is a cry baby. always has been.
As for the rule and the punishment... If the FIA is serious about not wanting team orders, then confronted with this clear case of team orders, the only reasonable punishment would have to be exclusion from the race. That's very harsh, but I think they could perhaps eliminate the WCC points for both drivers for the race, as well as give them both a 25 second time penalty - which would put Alonso back to 4th and Massa back to 6th. I hear the point of those saying to punish Alonso only, but it wasn't his fault, wasn't Massas fault either. They just did what they were told. Although if I was Charlie or Todt, I would remind Luca of all the verbiage about how he feels penalties ought to undo the advantage gained
Sorry but the only stupid thing is the FIA's "no team order" rule -- that we ALL know exists anyway. If Alonso and Massa had collided and Vettel won the race, would you still be so happy they didn't stop it? I think they gave Massa the chance to extend his lead. Instead, it went DOWN. If Massa were ahead with a decent gap with less than 10 laps to go, I'm sure they would have told Alonso not to go for it or told him to "watch his fuel" or "brakes" or any other code word for slow down. Do I like the way Massa just pulled over to the side? No. But, Massa is a big boy. He knows the team needs points and that Alonso has a much better chance than he does to win the championship. The season is half over and he's far behind Alonso. He can't argue with that.
Exactly. Also Ferrari wants to do everything they can to preserve their WCC chances and a collision would have been their worst nightmare.
+100 Totally agree with you, Colin. It was stupidly handled by Ferrari, and Massa's engineer should have left out the second comments. I wonder why teams cannot come up with a simple "code word" to convey the message.
As a fan who isn't allied to any specific team, I prefer to let all the drivers race and see who wins. I believe that is best for the fans. As a realist, I understand that the teams will sometimes do what is best for the team as a whole. However, if the rules are in place making it illegal, they ought to change the rules. There is nothing I hate more than a rule that is ignored with a wink and a nudge - it insults my intelligence and that of every spectator. Ferrari were brazen today and they disrespected the FIA and more importantly they disrespected the fans. They were stupid to do that, and will pay the price - and should. Either -Ferrari should be disqualified from today's race or -The rule should be rescinded One of the two. The nodding and winking stuff has no place in a sport where fans spend thousands of dollars to view their drivers compete. And yes, I would have preferred a crash during an attempt at a pass than team orders.
Come now gentlemen, Your indignation is such that one would be excused for thinking this is your inauguration in outright corruption, moral prostitution and back-door buffoonery. Surely, as you frequent the f(c)hat f1 section you're no virgin. If the corrupt Fchat neo-naNNies can peddle their obtuseness + depravity as order Surely, Poor old Ferrari is permitted to engage in 3rd class theatrical productions. In fact, were Ferrari the bastion of moral integrity which you seem to desire, they would be the exception. Jay GT4 F1 Rookie Silver Subscribed >A win is a win You don't win a prostitute. You get it. And it looks like ... Vettel being genuinely happy as opposed to Fa + Fm = prostitution^2 Corruption is stupid and needs to go Because its collateral damage is the integral component of sport, its very essence. And no amount of sprinklers and/or other absurd 3rd class theatrical productions will mitigate the void - \ krvava gruda plodna zemlja \
Yes, he earned that spot. But, he was losing to Alonso. The data is very clear on that. To say this isn't a team sport is ridiculous. Of course it is. Massa knows that. Sure he's disappointed. You know, in baseball there is the "sacrifice". It's TEAM ORDERS that a guy give himself up to help the team. In return, he's not charged for an at bat. But, he doesn't get the opportunity to be a hero or improve his statistics either. The FIA should have something similar to give driver's of the same team "co wins" if they finish 1-2. That would stop the problem.
