FORMULA 1 GROSSER PREIS SANTANDER VON DEUTSCHLAND 2010: RACE *** Spoilers ***

Smedley was entirely right in how he handled the situation. Alonso wasn't as fast as Ferrari say he was, it was Massa's race and if Alonso is so good, he would have overtaken Massa regardless. There was an argument for around 10 laps between Smedley and his stupid superiors about how and why.

See it this way: You're about to close a multimillion dollar deal, and just prior to walking into the room to sign the papers, your boss tells you to step aside and let his favorite son sign the deal instead, pretending he did all the work.

+1

Yup. I was FURIOUS. Still am.

There where still 9 races to finish, Massa has as much a chance as Alonso has. If there where just 2-3 races to go, no argument...but this is f'in ridiculous.

 

Boring race.

Congrats to the Scuderia, which seems to have found some long needed pace.

Another good job by Nico.

 

No team rules with a WCC? A total oxymoron... And I APPLAUD Ferrari for showing just how stupid the rule is. Worth every penny of the $100,000 fine!

 

And, Massa's been in F1 long enough to know the score. IMO, they should fire him for that post-race interview...

 

It was great to see Massa take the lead and run with it for a while. In my opinion, if Alonso wanted to pass, he should have done it on track. I understand the arguments from all sides, but I hate seeing team orders decide a race no matter who it is.

On a brighter note, I am thrilled Ferrari was able to show some real pace. As Alonso said during the interview, they won without aid from anything, it was truly down to pace.

Mark

 

Mercedes' tire strategy made no sense. Brilliant start for Schu but he went in for tires far too soon. Meh, no biggie.

Great job Ferrari. They were in a position to undoubtedly have a 1-2 finish, but decided to compromise this but yielding Massa's position allowing Vettel to very possibly gain ground and pass. Stupid stupid move. They were lucky.

 

Agreed. Massa has had his moments in the sun; this was one of them. But he's just not a WDC caliber driver...

Also, the only reason Massa even ended up in the lead is due to Vettel squeezing Alonso.

 

Massa's big chance was in 2008 with Kimi napping. I still resent Glock for getting passed by Hambone on the last lap in Brazil.

I don't think Massa will ever quite make it, although he'll probably get close again. Alonso, however, has "it" and will make it again. Honestly, it wouldn't matter who was in the #1 slot, Massa would be bitter and jealous for being #2. It could be Vettel, Hambone (shudder), anyone, makes no difference, it's part of Massa's personality.

 

Agreed. Massa has had his moments in the sun; this was one of them. But he's just not a WDC caliber driver...

Also, the only reason Massa even ended up in the lead is due to Vettel squeezing Alonso.

 

$100,000 fine PAH! That means nothing to them, the thing that is going to have a big impact on Ferrari is remove both drivers points or give Massa back the win or a grid place drop or something like that. IMO Ferrari have got a away quite lightly and if they had done this nearer the end of the season, like they last few races things could have been very different.

Personally I would give Massa the win back because he deserved it, it's exactly a year since his accident BUT it would still piss off Ferrari because Alonso is the main threat to RB and Mclaren to win the Championship.

 

Just watched the race on the delay... I am no Massa fan but what a bull**** thing to do. If Alonso is faster, MAKE THE PASS. Massa did a GREAT job today. If he was able to hold off Alonso the same way Alonso held off Schumi, then he should be given that chance. *especially* on the one year 'anniversary' of his accident.

I am glad the WMSC will be investigating this... it was BS that Alonso was whining on the radio. Say what you will about McLaren and Red Bull, but the fact that Webber and Vettel crashed into each other and Button and Hamilton made contact at the same race proves that those teams don't have team orders the way Ferrari does.

The best moment of the race was Massa making it obvious he was moving aside for Alonso to pass.

To me, this comes off as incredibly brazen on Ferraris part. Wha hubris! Especially after they *just* called Whiting to the mat over this stuff. And especially with memories or Schumacher and Rubens fresh in peoples minds. And *especially* with Todt at the helm of the FIA who will be expected to act, considering *he* was the one that gave the order (the order that pissed off a million fans) the last time.


Webber is lucky not to pick up a penalty for his off-track excursion in the first corner.

Button drove fantastically, as did Hamilton.

Stupid STR drivers.

Stupid Force India putting on one wrong tire.

Stupid Domenicali for making Massa look like a chump after the kid drove his heart out today.

 

I actually gained a LOT of respect for Smedley and Massa today. They did what they were ordered to do, but they did it under protest and made it obvious... so hopefully it won't happen again.

 

I haven't read the whole thread, but I haven't seen any comments regarding Rob's earlier transmission - I can check it, but something like, "OK, you've got 2 seconds over him, you've gotta extend that gap!" [Which he did for few laps.]

However, Fred then closed the gap (demonstrating that he was indeed quicker), Phil couldn't respond, and hence was told to let his faster teammate thru' (which does not violate the rules.)

I think the $100K fine is a reasonable slap-on-the-wrists, but I could argue even that is unjustified. Certainly no post race or grid position penalties IMO.

My take - Stefano told Rob Fred was quicker - Rob said "BS!", and Stefano said "OK, you've got 10 (?) laps to prove it - If he can't stretch the gap, Fred's gonna go by."

Cheers,
Ian

 

That attitude is what caused the Red Bulls to crash in Turkey and how Webber ruined Vettel's race in Silverstone.

Alonso could have risked it all and pass Massa, but at what cost?

Alonso was faster, which he showed by pulling away. If the race had lasted somewhat longer, Vettel would have beaten Massa.

Prohibiting team orders is stupid.

 

Stewards to let FIA rule on Ferrari
Sunday, 25 July 2010 17:11

Ferrari will have to appear before the FIA World Motor Sport Council to defend its actions in the German Grand Prix, after the race stewards adjudged that Felipe Massa and Fernando Alonso's exchange of the lead had broken the rules.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48924

 

...except Button then DID pass Hamilton who then fought back and re-passed him (with a little contact between the cars to boot).

Ergo, clearly they do not have team orders.

 

Or they do but Button didn't want to play. And after that pass and re-pass they were told to hold position ('save fuel'). So they do have team orders, but they didn't show them as obviously as Ferrari did today.

 

Also it wasn't Rob who told Massa to move over. It was the Italian guy (forgot his name, not Dominicali).

 

It is not OK to break rules just because you don't like them. The tire rule is that you must use both types of tires. If a team thinks it's stupid and uses only one set, they have broken the rules and will be excluded. No gray area there.

And that attitude it what caused the RB's to crash and also what caused the McLarens to touch and you know what, that's GREAT racing. I want to see that kind of racing. I would never be in favor of anything that puts the revenues of the teams ahead of the enjoyment of the fans.

As for Alonso being faster, it's irrelevant. If being faster was the metric for grid position, we can just dispense with the race and just hand out trophies and points after qualifying.

 

They were not told to hold position - Button was told he needed to go on the same fuel saving strategy. It's logical to presume identical cars with identical engines would have identical fuel consumption other than how they are driven, and that in a race situation the car that had used less fuel would only have a small window during which they could push and try to overtake.

That is why Vettel was able to make a move on Webber, he had saved more fuel. And why Button was able to make a move on Hamilton, he had saved more fuel.

It is not logical to assume that Massa had a momentary gear shift problem that caused him to lose the position to Alonso the way the team has claimed.

Therefore, to claim that Ferrari has team orders just like everyone else is clearly not true, and any assertion of such is clearly wrong.

 

Ofcourse they were not literally told to hold position, because that could be explained by the stewards and/or FIA as team orders. They (McLaren) are not stupid.

Ferrari thought they could get away with it similarly by just giving Massa 'information' about Alonso being faster. That's also not a team order, but code for letting him past. The difference with the McLaren situation is that the Ferrari drivers switched position.

 

There is not any concrete knowledge of team orders, just the presumption that there are team orders. We had the same situation with Vettel and Webber... if there were team orders, why was Button allowed to win races earlier this season? Why was Webber? Why wasn't Button told to move over for Hamilton in China? If the claim that "other teams have team orders too!" was correct, these things would have happened, yet they did not. Today, Massa was in front and was clearly told to move over for Alonso. That has not happened at other teams. So, to claim it is no different than what other teams do is clearly not true.

The world doesn't work like that.... indisputable irrefutable proof is not required to penalize someone, either in the court system or in the private judicial system of team sports. If the FIA believe a team order was given, that is enough. If you come home and your TV has been stolen, and you see drag marks leaning to your neighbors house and you see him watching the same make/model TV you had, and he says "you didn't SEE me do it, so you can't prove anything!" doesn't hold up.

The FIA and the stewards do not need absolute proof. Does anyone think there was not a team order? We all know there was. As do the FIA and stewards. They are not stupid people and the "you can't PROVE we did it" line will only antagonize the officials and insult their intelligence. It has no place in adult discussion or in the stewards or FIAs offices.

 

I don't know because I don't run those teams. Same thing can be said for Ferrari. Why let Alonso by? Why didn't they ask Massa the same thing a few races ago (Australia?)

Ferrari could have hidden the order by screwing up Massa's pitstop or tell him he has fuel problems or any other excuse to let Alonso close up and get by. I bet the FIA wouldn't have had a leg to stand on, so it DOES work that way, at least in the real world.

 

What he said.

Team orders are a reality. Ferrari's crime was to make it so obvious. If this leads to a big discussion and ultimately the abandonment of that rule, then we have achieved progress.

 

Ferrari remember's Massa's loss of the WCC by one point very well. If that happened to Alonso at the end of this season, everyone would have pointed to this as a total waste.

Sorry but Massa is behind by quite a bit and the season's half over. He cast his dye already.

He's more upset about that than losing this one race I assure you.

Ferrari WANTS to win. And, they are going to do everything they can to do it. To me, Red Bull removing upgraded parts of one guy's car to give it to another is far worse. Talk about BLATANT team orders! Where is the FIA there?