FORMULA 1 GROSSER PREIS SANTANDER VON DEUTSCHLAND 2010: RACE *** Spoilers ***

Fans and enemies of team orders!

I believe we all agree about one little thing: We are looking forward to see the last turn before the finish at the Abu Dhabi GP, where Button (eventually leading the GP) will have to let pass Hamilton (eventually 2nd in the GP) to avoid to let the World Title go to Alonso and Ferrari.
We 'll see what happens then, I 'd doubt very much he won't let him pass, and to make it look like a real pass is not easy...
Clearly, a $ 100.000 fine is peanuts for teams like Ferrari, McLaren or Red Bull...

 

+1

 

Go to any courthouse in the world and you will see that it doesn't work the way you think.

The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt or a preponderance of evidence - i.e. "more likely than not likely". It is no different in sports. There does not need to be indisputable evidence, there only needs to be a strong enough case.

In this case, Ferrari will not be able to get off on the basis of "you can't PROVE we did it, therefore you can't do anything".

They've already accepted the fine. Therefore, they know that what I am saying is true as well. We shall see how things go at the WMSC.

 

How do you reconcile the $100k fine then?

And Ferrari accepting it and saying they won't appeal?


The claim I am refuting is "they can't PROVE Ferrari did it, therefore they can do nothing".

I say not true. And it's not. Because the fine was levied, and Ferrari has already accepted it and agreed to pay.

Therefore, the idea that they can't prove it and so can't do anything is clearly not the case. They already have done something. And Ferrari have accepted it. If the viewpoint of those I argue with was correct, Ferrari could appeal the fine and win under the claim of "you can't PROVE we did it". We all know they did it. It doesn't need to be irrefutably proven. Not in a federal murder case, not in a small claims case, and certainly not in a private judicial system like that of the FIA.

 

That's what I thought, too -- that it didn't sound at all like Rob, but I didn't recognize the voice.
But the reporters all thought it was Rob. Maybe Rob was just making it very clear that the message wasn't his.

But did you see the press conference?
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/7/11072.html

Talk about a grilling:

"Where will this victory rank in your career, is it up there with Singapore 2008?"
Yikes. Live ammo exercise.
I'm guessing Fred was *not* amused.

Although Vettel scored his classiest move of the weekend in the conference.
("Can I go?" )


I'm too disgusted to comment on the team orders immediately.
The rule against team orders is stupid.
But applying team orders before the last three or four races usually winds up being stupid, too.

Heck, one big reason Massa is so far off Alonso's points is from being punted off by Alonso. Off the track, off the pit entry, etc. Punting off your teammate does not help the WCC points total. Ferrari is rewarding that kind of myopic gorilla activity, over loyalty?

How will that reflect on Ferrari's attitude towards customer service?

"Grosser" Prix indeed.

 

And why did this happen....because Alonso and team cheated to win the race by having Piquet crash his car. At the time that that incident happened, Massa was leading the race. In the chaos that resulted, Massa and Ferrari blew the race with the refueling screw up. Had Renault not screwed with this race, Massa might very well have not lost by one point. In short, Massa screwed by Alonso again.

 

And what does any of this have to do with today?

Let's put it this way... if the season were half over and Massa was leading in the points, do you really think they would have asked Massa to let him by?

Massa's problem today was his lack of performance for the season to date.

 

Ask Massa. I'm sure that he is not a big fan of Alonso...either then or today.

 

Well, Kimi was asked to move over for Massa last year, and without team orders, Massa would not have been in a position to win the WDC against Hamilton.

The previous year, Massa moved over for Kimi and Kimi won the WDC because of team orders.

The difference, to me, is firstly that there were much less points given back then, so every point was much more valuable. Also, it wasn't the halfway mark of the season. It seems incredibly early to be doling out team orders. Furthermore, it was done in a much more subtle way, which at least shows some level of respect for the fans. And finally, the driver who was being asked to move over hadn't been shafted by his teammate. Massa has been shafted this season at least twice by Alonso... had those things not happened, he may be alot closer to Alonso.

 

the b1tching and moaning never ends....we win...ah heck, we didn't 'do it with dignity'...we lose...ah heck , Domenicali, Alonso must go... cry cry cry... Fchat never gets boring. always something to 'discuss'.

me personally, i enjoyed the absurdity of the 'execution'...the obviousness of team orders. they could've done A LOT better to hide it nothing new this season, or any previous seasons. first half of the season, the code was 'save fuel'...and the Mcl and RB boys have been waaaaay better at it..making it look good, making it look like 'racing' in the process..prob cuz the 'agreement' wasn't nearly as firm..leading to 'confusion' among the drivers. good stuff.

 

I would not have done this if I was running the Ferrari team, I would have wanted to but with the FIA already picking on Alonso this will just make it worse.

Heck they will probably disqualify the team from the results ...

The Ferrari team have just put themselves at the FIA disgression and the FIA thanks to Jean is finally trying not to be Ferrari biased. Idiots are the Ferrari team fornot staying in control.
Pete

 

Yet again, Pete hits the nail on the head.

They just painted big targets on their back and depending on how pissed the FIA is over the verbiage out of Ferrari the last several weeks, they must be salivating.

 

Here's something to think about.

Let's say there was never such a thing as "team orders" and the teams can do whatever they want. You know, like a manager can do on a baseball team or a coach can do on a basketball team.

Then, Massa was leading but Alonso was faster. Alonso has a much better chance to win the world title than Massa (can anyone doubt that?).

So, the team tells Massa they want him to move over and let Alonso pass.

Massa, paid by the team, says "sure".

Massa says to all -- I could have won but for the good of the team and to support my teammate, I let him pass. I'm sure if I were leading in points, they would have done it for me.

Alonso says -- thank you my teammate! Isn't it great we finished 1 and 2 today! We really showed Red Bull. We are back!


Everyone is happy. Massa knows the score and doesn't have to lie. He looks like a hero. Alonso gives his teammate a big thumbs up, maybe even gives him the trophy. The team wins an important victory and points together.

What's so wrong with that?

The only difference is the stupid "no team orders" rule, which forces teams to lie about what's going on.

 

Bingo!!

and I'm a Massa fan, he just didn't have enough points to catch the front runners

 

So your position is stupid rules don't need to be followed?

So can a team ignore other stupid rules in F1?

Please clarify which "stupid rules" need to be followed.

 

+1

 

If a rule is created that is in direct CONFLICT of the goals of the sport, that's just stupid.

The goals of the sport are to have teams -- and drivers -- win. Not ONLY drivers.

When you put a rule in place that is going to create an obvious problem with that goal, it's just stupid.


Saying the manager of the F1 team can't control his drivers is like saying the manager of a baseball team can't control who he puts on the field or what order they bat in. He can't "bench" a player for not giving his all. He can't ask a guy to sacrifice himself to get a teammate into scoring position.

That would be stupid -- just as "no team orders" are.

So, to get around these obvious conflicts, the teams try to cover it up or outright lie. That's far, far worse than just admitting they are controlling the situation in the first place. It's always the coverup that's worse than the crime.

 

I see it as there should never be rules like the "team orders" rules (rules that are completely false and transparent), and shouldn't be there in the first place.

Of course the teams must follow the rules, but let the rules actually have meaning to them, not a charade of code words

 

Well, you're merging two things together here.... the team orders being contrary to the rules, and Massa being unhappy with having to move over.

Massa wasn't unhappy because team orders are illegal and he was asked to break the rules - he was unhappy because he was winning and set to get his first win and he was told to move over.

So in your scenario above, he would have still moved over and would have been just as unhappy about it and would have said so in the post-race.

The scenario as described above wouldn't happen. Look at Schumacher and Barrichello back in 02 (or whenever)... team orders were not illegal then, and Barrichello was VERY unhappy with his win.

 

I'm afraid that would make a lot of the rules stupid and not worthy of being followed.

Tire rules.
Fuel filling rules.
Testing ban.
Engineering limitations (i.e. no active aero).

They all hamper a team's ability to win. Tire and fuel filling rules hamper what a team would otherwise do on track. Ideally they would run light and go faster, make up more than enough time to make it worth coming in for fuel and tires.

The rules artificially hamper this and require them to perform in a manner that is contrary to their ability to complete the event in the fastest time.

If a team were to decide those rules are not worth following and refuse to run the option tires, or decide to fill up with fuel, or implement active aero, I believe there is no doubt what would happen.

 

Exactly.

F1 is about following the rules to best advantage,... even going right to the line.

Breaking a rule with your thumb firmly to your nose is another thing altogether.

 

Ferrari have moved from Maranello to Sesame Street.

What a bunch of muppets.

 

So, there aren't unhappy teammates on other team sports? Hey... you get PAID to drive or play. When you sign the contract, that's the deal. Don't like it? Prove them all wrong and find another team. It happens all the time in professional sports.

How many teammates complain they don't get enough playing time or the coach doesn't use them to their potential? It's what being an athlete on a team is supposed to do -- support THE TEAM.

Now, if you want to remove the "team" part from F1, then OK. But as long as we all agree it is a team sport, the drivers should listen to the management of the TEAM as to what's best for them.

Sure, Massa could have said outloud he hated the decision. Isn't that better than trying to sheepishly lie about it on camera? How many players whine about not getting a chance to do whatever after the game? Lots. So, why can't F1 drivers do it?

Because of the STUPID IDIOTIC "no team orders" rule.

 

The team result would have been unchanged today - 43 points no matter which order their drivers finished in.

In my view, once the lights go out I don't want the results being influenced directly by outside forces like they were today. The cars are all on track to compete and that's what each of them should be allowed to do. If one driver is faster then it is his job to find a way past that slower car in front of him. In this instance we had a driver make a few attempts after being aided by traffic which did not pay off. They did not result in a crash that some have suggested would be the result of such activity either. Then the following driver got on the radio and started whining about ridiculousness and the team gifted him the position.

The only thing that was ridiculous was the result today. If the finishing order is going to be determined by someone in a suit in the pitlane instead of overalls in the driver's seat then that's not a sport I am eager to continue watching.

>8^)
ER

 

Bad analogy. F1 is not football, baseball or other team sport
where the players collaborate and the team is awarded the win.

It wasn't F that was in 1st place because of the orders, it was FA
and undeservedly.

Secondly, these type of orders, particularly at this stage,
create a counterproductive and anti-team climate, notwithstanding
the public fallout from the outright corruption and unsportsmanship.

This is supposed to be a sport.