F 40 Coming to Auction @ Quail

FYI

Estimate 300K-330K $

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/WService=wslive_pub/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=USA&screen=lotdetailsNoFlash&iSaleItemNo=4584913&iSaleNo=18267&iSaleSectionNo=2

 

James: we have sold 7 USA F40s so far this year and 2 of them had very similar miles to 85416 (the 14th USA F40 built), both bought by F-Chatters, who can confirm they paid at least $100,000 more than the estimate placed by Bonhams. I can assure you either the estimate is a pure mistake (not a first for an auction catalog!!) or Bonhams are simply low-balling for interest. If indeed this is their estimate I will be bidding on behalf of at least 1 client who does not mind a car with miles.

BTW I think Jesse and yourself will arrive with a great buzz having completed the Targa Florio in such a machine.

Yours Sincerely,

 

One thing that you mention resonates when one looks at the massive amount of metal that will soon be crossing the Block.

There are a lot of offerings but fewer of them IMO have NO stories.

I think that with F 40's etc. the spread will widen between totally original cars and those that have been modified. It wouldn't amaze me to see this car sell for 300K and it wouldn't surprise me if one of your pristine examples sold for 500K or more. As an aside the swing even in VERY rare cars can very be wide as well. There are 250 GTO's that would trade at 25MM $ and there are 250 GTO's that would trade for 12MM $.

You have to read the discription very carefully. It's a one owner car that was modified heavily by the owner. The original parts come with the car. The owner was a real collector/vintage racer. He drove and raced his cars and had an in house staff to keep them well maintained. It's an Estate sale (RIP) so the cars will be sold.

I do have my eye on his 917 but as I get older I do tend to remember what a friend who drove them in the day in anger once told me.

"Widowmaker"

I am looking for an 87 Euro F40 and wish I had bought the one RM brought to Amelia a while ago.

Best

 

A truer statement about classic cars for sale was never made!

 

in my opinion 330K dollars for a f40 is a very low estimation, the raison can be the reserve price, if the owner don,t like hider reserve price, the auction housse preferts to start the auction with a lower price, some times the prices when star lowers increase more!!!!!, in my case I byed my f40 in februrary 2010 by 290.000 euros, more or less 381.000 us dollars and in my opinion my car whas cheaper.

 

Let's also not forget the buyers fee. It's something like 17% for the first $100,000, and then it changes...... I think all together it will be about 15%. In addition the car needs "the service" and who knows whatever else (seals, bushings, interior, etc). I figure that whatever it crosses the block at, get ready to instantly add at least another $50,000 - $75,000. So $325,000 quickly becomes $400,000. BTW: Has anybody seen this car?

 

ALL of his cars are VERY well maintained.

 

I suppose one could make worse choices...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alfa-Romeo-8C-2008-Alfa-Romeo-8C-Competizione-VERY-RARE-708-404-5040-/250667579927?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3a5cf3ba17

 

Having driven both I'd rather that one.

 

Others cars include rare 910 Works Porsche and Porsche 962 Group C car. As you noted, however, the 917 Spyder IS a star, being an original "Gulf liveried" JW Automotive Team car that ran in 1970 at LeMans...

 

A bit crazy how it ended that run. Slid off the track on slicks when Mike didn't stop to get rain tires in a massive downpour. There's also a coupe body going up which could be used to reconvert it to a coupe. Personally I think they should auction those as a package.

You do have to read the History VERY carefully so you know exactly which chassis you're getting. As I read it this is the Le Mans chassis repaired by Porsche.

 

On a similar note, there is the following:

Sale 18267 Lot 226 •
Show details Bid / Track

1980 Ferrari 512 BB Chassis no. F102BB 33799
Estimate: $80,000 - 90,000



That is under market price for a 512BB, correct?

 

There's an article in SCM about how Bonhams is setting more realistic estimates and the positive effect that's having on their business.

There are a LOT of cars looking for buyers next week in Monterey and if anyone is seriously interested I'd have a look and Contact Rupert Banner on either of these.

 

The f40s are not getting any cheeper, obviously, but I remember estimates beeing offered at USD 180-200 K on some of these threads. Maybe they were wrong after all.....or are we still waiting for these price levels?

All the best!
Caley

 

Caley

Not getting "cheeper"? What part of the 300-330K USD estimate for this one are you having trouble understanding? Around that time I pointed out one for just under 400K. Joe said the seller shouldn't take a penny less than 400K. This one's high estimate is 70K under that.

How about the one that traded at Bonhams when you last posted? You bid on the one? Remember me pointing that one out to you? It was close to your statement that you'd buy anyone that got to 200K e. A guy here posted a euro one he just bought at 280k $ that's another one VERY close to your number. You offer 200Ke for that one? You think things are getting better? The US and world economies booming?

As I said when the euro F 40's become US legal I still think high mileage beaters will trade for under 200K US here. This one if it goes at the low estimate will net the seller 270K and it's a US car in good shape well maintained. You think that if the US Economy keeps circling the drain that a few years from now when euro F40 supply come to the US a Euro beater won't sell her for 70K less than that?

ROTFLOL

The good thing about FCHAT is that people can judge people by what they say and what they do.

Bloomberg just interviewed me on Car Collecting and where I see the market and where I think it's going. It will be a major piece in their magazine soon. They contact you yet for a counter opinion to mine?

 

The old story of demand and supply, as soon as Euro cars become legal in the US, supply will increase and prices will fall as a result. When that happens the new debate will be which is the superior car, Euro of USA spec....

 

There's a lot of differences between the two certainly...

 

The Market shows there are plenty of North American F40s for those that want them, changing hands a lot lately among enthusiasts...

Just don't leave it in a Wheelchair Parking space.......

 

What part am I having trouble understanding...?

Let us stay at a gentlemens level of discussions, shall we?

I was just interested in refreshing the situation on the estimates since I saw the matter beeing discussed again. And I am still interested in buying at US 200 K, but the market for those cars is not on this planet. In sweden a car without papers recently sold at USD 455 K and an offer for another car has been turned down just last week at USD 520 K. A car in Denmark sold for over USD 600 K last month. So why should the europeans ship these cars to the US for low prices? Why should we flod the US market with cars at half the price we can get here? It would be interesting to understand the logics here!

Take a look at the market in Italy, Germany or the UK and please explain why all these increasing trends are wrong. Facts to me is what is really happening, and not guesswork or personal theories.

And yes, you can judge people by what they say and do, just as well as you can judge people by what they guess and what happens in real life. But this is not a word game between me and you, and obviously it is a sensitive subject so lets stop here on this matter and not go for a third round on this forum.

And regarding the world economies, there is a lot to say, but I doubt that Ferrarichat is the place for this debate. My personal guess though is that the typical F40 owner has not invested all his money in his car, so I doubt that the connection between the stock market and F40 prices will give 100% correlation curves. But that is just guessing, of course.

Take care now!

Best regards
Caley

 

Yawn.

Once again a poster here clearly stated what
he recently paid in Europe for an F 40 and it is
Much less your 600 K $.

Once again your statement that F 40's
aren't getting "cheaper" is not true.

The Euro sale posted here and the absolute fact
that there are US F 40 that you can
buy today for under 400k and the estimates for
this car 300-330 K$ speak for themselves.

 

Especially next to your F50 and Enzo similarly
Parked in a Handicapped Space.

 

Jim: that very same car is discreetly available today at $450k.

Clearly your insight into the equity and economic markets is vast and you have good reason to be concerned that all is not well. Your thoughts therefore represent a cautious approach tempered with a certain logic based on the aforementioned markets.

But remember, the F40 exists within a unique market where values for some of the better cars are fueled by passion & desire, and corresponding market logic often (but admittedly not always) gets set aside.

As you yourself said at the beginning of this thread, "I think that with F 40's etc. the spread will widen between totally original cars and those that have been modified. It wouldn't amaze me to see this car sell for 300K and it wouldn't surprise me if one of your pristine examples sold for 500K or more.".

True.

 

Joe

All True.

Best

 

Please try to follow the issue at hand - I am not saying that the price level is USD 600 K or trying to even set a price range. What I am debating with you is if the market price for F40s is on a trend towards USD 180-200 K which you have claimed so many times, and I find no support for this since the prices are currently on an upwards trend in the market. So the fact that a car has been bought below USD 600 K is not a problem for my opinion. But it does not support your theory either until it verifies a deal below USD 200 K. So let us put this one aside, shall we?

I met with DK Engineering and some other F40 specialists in the UK in July. DK engineering has sold more F40s than most other companies in Europe, and they had 2 cars for sale now. According to them the prices are on an upwards trend for the F40 at the moment, and they have prices in the region of USD 550 K for their cars. Others we visited and met on the national club meet were of the same opinion. Just for your information.

My own opinion is not based on what I guess or compared to the trends in the stock market. I speak with dealers who have made recent sales, buyers looking and follow the international sale sites. I do not find any support for a trend towards USD 180-200 K there.

Joe has an obvious experience with the US market and I have not found him supporting your trend either.

We have discussed this many times, and references has been made to scam cars and currencies have been mistaken. Nothing supports that the market price, defined as the general price level one can purchase an F40 at, is heading for USD 180-200 K. So I hope Bloombergs will use more than one source for their article.

But I agree with one thing. The Yawn.

Caley

 

Calley

Either you're smart enough to understand
that there are several F40's offered for sale in the US
for below 400K today and that this car's
Auction estimate is 300-330k and comparing
these prices and Auction estimates to a
year ago the trend is Down or you're
not.