How often to change 328's timing belts?

And Lightning, Just remember what happens on a NON-Interference engine when the belt breaks-- NOTHING. With an interference engine like a Ferrari ....... BIG DIFFERENCE.

As the old saying goes, You can pay me now or you can PAY ME LATER.


BTW, in this case (non-interference), Ford could have recommended "NEVER" with a clear conscience.

 

Yes, but a lot of current passenger car engines are interference engines and nobody else has such a short belt change interval.

In my mind the question is WHY does that short factory interval exist? Is it because the engines are that much harder on the belts than any other engine? Is it due to some money-making scheme by Ferrari for service? I would like to understand the dynamics of the issue as opposed to just blindly following a TB that, at least at a glance, does not seem to be necessary with any other manufacturer using the same, ubiquitous Gates (or whoever) belts.

Again, I have no problem with it at all if the answer is, "The way we designed the belt layout, the engine is just really hard on belts." Frankly that seems a logical possibility to me considering the abrupt angles involved.

OTOH, is there a history of 3x8 belt failures from the mid-70's through 2002 when the TSB was issued? I guess what bothers me a bit is the lack of any evidence that there was a problem in the first place - or maybe it was a huge problem but was never discussed publicly. But you'd think that nowadays, with the internet, there would be plenty of stories about how 3x8s routinely broke belts and destroyed engines using the factory original belt replacement schedule...

I realize this topic has been done to death but I do find it interesting and worth reviewing occasionally. Sure, one can just replace them every 3 years and leave it at that but a lesson I got early in my mechanical life is that doing work just to do it also leaves another possibility for doing something/forgetting something and causing a problem that didn't exist before.

 

Here's what I hear...

-The belts (frequently) look "new" when they're replaced. Hey, I'd agree with that statement, in that I've personally changed approximately 350-400 timing belt sets on various Ferrari models.
-Personal observation: When the belt do break...and they do, the outside of the belts, as well as the inside always looks "great", except at the "break" point.
-Just pull the covers and inspect them. Huh? If they always look "new" then what am I looking for, then?
-With the covers off, why not change the belts and tensioners, in that you've spent "a few hours" just to get the covers off
-Wait ten years, or so...then replace the belts? At that point, the cam seals are past toast, valve cover gaskets are leaking like no tomorrow....and the tensioners are shot.
-Diesels are tougher on belts than a Ferrari, or gas-powered car. Hmmm...how so?
-Just anybody care about checking cam timing or the valve clearances anymore? Head bolt torque? Cam journal caps?

We've been doing belts on these cars at the 5 year intervals since they were new. You can read all the Gates literature you want, as well as Mike Sheenan BS. With infrequent use and higher engine compartment temperatures typical in a mid-engined car, these "rules" really don't apply. Your typical Honda, Toyot or Ford Diesel doesn't spend most of its life at 6,000 RPM and above.

At nominally $15K for a valve job on a QV, and a big prayer that the pistons didn't get clobbered too bad, a periodic belt service seems like cheap insurance.

Fall Service Special: Free timing belts on those who come in with bent valves...(Offer limited to 3x8 cars, only)

David

 

So a cam belt change every five years it is then on my Mondial t? Or is it every three?
It's true that the stakes are higher here. A cam belt failure on my Ferrari would turn my dream car into a dusty hulk in my garage as I'd never pay the potential £15k repair bill on a car worth less that £20k. It would probably end up being broken for parts.

 

Wait, you're not asking for a definitive answer, here in the 300th cam belt thread on Ferrarichat, are you?
All that can be done is to sift through all the noise here and make your own decision.

Being in the "5 years exemplifies an abundance of caution" camp, I'm bothered by the level of paranoia that pervades these discussions leading everyone to espouse the 3 year interval. I, once again, point out that 3 years was required for a "certified" used car which represents an abbreviated service interval for anything and everything so the car is ready to go for a while once purchased "certified", but we're dealing with the mystique of Ferrari timing belts and "too much is never enough".

You've got to come to your own conclusion here, there is no consensus right and wrong.

 

It should be the exact opposite, by example, if we take a look at today's tyres they made a lot of improvement ...

I recently change my timing belt on my NSX and I put this super timing belt:

Toda Racing Timing Belt

I wish I could do the same with my Ferrari.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I changed mine when I bought the car 7 years ago at 38K miles, looking through the PO records, I didn't see one ever done.

Now at 4.5 years & +40K miles, the water pump was vibrating and I had (2) 1K drives coming up. So I figured it was time. Turns out the 1st major futzed up the exhaust valve clearance. I have a happier engine now. I keep all my old parts (well, almost). The belts do look very good, though they have that dull finish I guess from being hot & 5 years old.

Maybe I should have used armorall on them

 

Don- Your second paragraph makes no sense at all. There is no 3 year certified used car standard and no such thing as an abbreviated service schedule. Where did you get that stuff?

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

This topic is a preverbal favorite here on F Chat, and is one of the most "chatted" about topics - as it should be I guess. When I first got into Ferrari's I did everything by the book, my car never saw rain, was always spotless, and I would change belts every 3 years. However as time went by and I spoke to more and more people (the educated Ferrari people) & my personal philosophy changed a bit. The stories of 100k Ferraris never having belts done etc always surprised me - of course the cars that had 3 years since belts and had interference issues also surprised me, tensioners can fail, variators can fail, cars can be parked in gear bumped and skip timing, many things can happen.

Very knowledgeable professional people will tell you "FNA recommends every 3 years" and that is the end. If you dig a little deeper and get to know them many /not all/ will say I think going 5 years will be fine.

IMO drive the car and have fun with it, change all the fluids every year - and get a comprehensive 30K service by the best person in your area every five years. The best way to purchase a Ferrari is get one that needs that 10K +/- dollar service, negotiate in the price and get it done first off so you have a base line with your car - Drive & Enjoy, sorry I already said that



Best,

AK

 

When I bought my 328 in '07 it had 25 k miles and a belt/bearing service was part of the deal. The old parts looked/felt fine. There was no record that it had ever had a previous belt service.

I am not suggesting that I would wait 18 years for a belt service but obviously the PO didn't worry about it much and there are extensive records for lots of other "routine" services - fluid changes yearly, ac service, tires, etc.

Again, this is JUST info, not any sort of recommendation.

 

In an effort to deviate slightly from what seems to be a lot of repetition concerning belts, I would like to ask about bearings and tensioners as I would like to learn a bit about troubleshooting those items and more importantly, how to recognize the signs of impending doom.

Logic tells me that failures with belts that looked "great", as fastradio puts it, a tensioner that is not performing it's job could easily have been the real culprit. For instance, a bad tensioner could allow a large standing wave to form on the belt, rpms suddenly change, standing wave transfers to one of the belt drive gears, belt jumps one tooth on the gear.....Mr. Valve meets Mr. Piston, Mr. Valve loses and the whole episode is so traumatic that Mrs. Belt goes to pieces. I can imagine that a bearing failure could have similar devastating outcomes.

The bearing failure is likely one preceded by unfamiliar noises. Is there a favored method to pinpoint/recognize bad tensioner bearings? When they start to make noise, is it obvious that they are the culprit? (My water pump bearings gave up the ghost, and that failure was preceded with cries for help)

And how about tensioners...when checking those, what does one look for?

I have not had the pleasure of performing the cam belt service yet, so I have not really had a chance to see how the mechanicals are put together, so please forgive me if some of my assumptions here are incorrect....just looking for guidance that could someday keep me outta trouble!

Brock

 

the tensioners should spin very smooth and no grease oooozing from them .... if they dont spin nice and free ... then this is the issue. when i did my tr i was on yr 8 and they sinned great, and the belts looked great .... when i did my 308 it was yr 6 (about to start) i took it out in the spring from winter storage, and heard alittle noise.... listened in a little close for a few days and brought her in for her anual oil change and look over... sure enough my mechanic says - its soud like the tensioner is noisey---- time to go in .... sure enough one of them was rusty (not spinning as nice) as the other ... only after 5 full yrs.... i can only assume the reason and differnece between the TR and the 308 is the TR gets regual use ( 2x a month) and the 308 at best once a month start up .... i think its important that these cars get every 2 weeks start up ... even in winter storage,i think they should be fired up at least every 2- 3 weeks for the belt, and the tensioner.

hence - a process of starting then often - my experience and observation ovber the last 11 yrs

 

Allow me to clarify. Let's recall that the 3 year timing belt recommendation came from the qualifications for the certified pre-owned program. I haven't stumbled across the memo in the last 5 minutes of looking, but to re-quote an earlier quote in this thread from Michael Sheehan about the matter:

A certified pre-owned vehicle has to have several years of regular maintenance done (to the extent that maintenance intervals permit), perhaps ahead of schedule, so the new owner is given a sense of security and freedom from buying a car and then having to put it in the shop right away. Hence, Ferrari says that the belts, while having a lifespan of 5 years (or plenty more), need to be replaced if their current age means the new owner will have to put the car in the shop for an expensive, scheduled service within the next couple of years.

 

To be safe, you should install new belts and tensioner bearings every morning before you drive. It's easy to do and you can enyoy doing it with your morning coffee.


(where's Dr. Strangelove with the "Forgot to read the sticky card?)

 

My '88 Mondial had a cam belt break at just under 25K miles, the car was 14 years old and most likely the belt was the factory original, as per the folks at Evermoor Engineering (Winder, Ga). Fortunately, this event occurred while the car was at idle so the damage was limited to one bank only (head rebuild and valve replacements; the pistons and crankshaft were undamaged).

In 2002 dollars, the previous owner paid close to $10,000.00 for the complete repair which included a few "while we're in here" items as well.

In addition, my (ex) '82 Mondial developed a serious oil leak from the cam belt drive pulley seal along with a wailing tensioner bearing. When I finally took her in for repair the Tech said, that when he removed the front engine cover, all the balls fell out of the bearings.

That was back in the mid '90's on a 13 (or so) year old car with about 25k miles.

If anyone is considering an ROI on 3 year belt changes don't forget to consider the risk over time; is your ownership limited to a "Ferrari Experience" (2 to 5 years) or is the car a "keeper" (10 or more years). If it's the latter, and chances are your car required service upon purchase, at $5K per (avg), you're at $20K for ten years.

I plan on keeping my current Mondial for a long time and have adopted the 5 year plan when it comes to belt changes

 

Actually you can. I have the cam cogs (adjustable even) and belts sitting on my shelf.

An F-Chatter developed them and at least one or two have put them to use.


I would like an After Action Review (AAR) if they (the users) are willing .................

 

Don- That is total and utter bullcrap. The bulletin is posted above and has nothing to do with any pre-owned program or any other nonsense Sheehan is being quoted correctlly or incorrectly as saying. What you are stating is completely incorrect and based on no factory published data. The factory bulletin is very specific. Three years is the factory recommendation. If you want to use something else, we do not care, but stop misquoting non-existent recommendations. You are doing a disservice to 3x8 owners.

If people want to ignore factory recommendations and make up their own service intervals, fine, just do not pretend there are actual factory data backing up those made-up intervals. As I have stated earlier, we do not care what you do with your belts, just stop quoting non-existent data.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

What type of noise does a bad tensioner bearing make, what type of sound should you listen for ?

Doug

 

Wow, let me have it. A little passionate about timing belts, aren't we Ferrari owners?

I hadn't noticed the bulletin you'd posted above, but, thanks to your kind reference to the bulletin being posted in this thread, note indeed no reference to a qualification program as Sheehan described. I stand corrected on that and am saying a prayer of thanks to the flying spaghetti monster right now that my belts lasted longer than 3 years.

It really makes me wonder why Sheehan made the assertion he did about the certified program from 2002 requiring belts within 2.5 years. I suppose that's different yet from the popular three. Maybe there's more info in some of the hundreds of other timing belt threads, I'm not digging it up!

 

Because Sheehan is a broker, not a mechanic. And in my opinion, He says a lot of silly stuff that I would never take seriously.

It still blows my head that we have two of the best Ferrari mechanics in the country on this forum stating their belt recommendation intervals based on what they have personally observed over the course of many years, yet people ignore them.

Just my .02

 

My thoughts:

Just change the belts every three years. What I mean is this; a trip to the belt doctor doesn't have to be a $3000-$6000 "major", "minor" or whatever you want to call it.

New belts and tensioners cost about $1000 +/-. That's it. That works out to under $30 a month to enjoy one of these cars. New belts increase the value if you want to selll and it increases the longevity of your Ferrari if you are going to keep (like me). If you can't afford this amount, you can't afford to put gas in it once. Give me a break.

My last belt change was just that. New belts and tensioners. Nothing else. Wasn't expensive. There is NO FERRARI LAW that states that this trip to the shop has to be a big dollar do everything while you are in there experience which is reason why so many put it off for so long!!!!

Now can I have a show of hands of those who can afford a Ferrari 3X8/Mondial BUT cannot afford the $30/month that goes with it?

 

Don- Sorry. I guess that was a little heavy-handed on my part. Some of Sheehan's writings are good, some miss the mark. The problem is separating the good from the bad. He has so much experience people tend to take his comments verbatim and that is not always a good idea.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Tommy- Voice of sanity. Belts are time dependent maintenance. Valve adjustments, water pumps, and related parts R&Rd for those things are mileage dependent maintenance. All that stuff, including degreeing the cams, does not need to be done every belt change. The WSMs actually say to lock the crank, clamp the cam pulleys (with vicegrips, no less), loosen the tensioners, and change the belts. Changing the tensioners is good insurance. No need to do a 15,000 or 30,000 mile service on every belt change. Waste of money.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Three year timing on belt changes is a good rule of thumb for sure.

However, it's possible to be a little more precise about the topic. Specifically, there are a lot of variables to consider when deciding exactly when your particular car needs a belt change...things like a) intrusion of oil into the belt area, b) environmental climate (humid or dry), c) mode/frequency of usage of the car, d) quality of bearings used, etc. These things all have a direct impact upon the ability of the belt drive system to function properly over a given period of time.

I'm not a ferrari service tech but I've done my own work on exotics for 30+ years including belt changes on 3X8s. In my experience, the belt breaks, or skips teeth, very rarely because of some inherent problem with the belt, but rather because of the above factors causing a situation where the belt is no doubt going to slip or break....a frozen bearing, oiling of the cam gears, intrusion of foreign matter into the belt area and fouling the belt, etc. In other words, if your 3X8 is rarely driven, stored in a damp London lock up, has leaky cam/crank seals then three years should be the minimum. But if your 3X8 is driven frequently, stored in a climate controlled Arizona garage, free of oil leaks, etc. then you can probably safely go five or even seven years.

Just my $.02.