458 Italia no more Manual

Well, I do know for a fact that our local dealer sold at least 3 manual coupes and they only got about 5 per year. I also know a guy who wanted a stick but threw in the towel and took paddles. Throw out 09 since all there was was scuds. You do the math. FNA is not a reliable source. Sorry. They say self serving stuff all the time. All you have to do is look over cars for sale and it is obvious far more than 1% were delivered with sticks. There were probably 2400-2700 430s delivered in the US 2005-07. Want to argue there are only 25 sticks? I'm confident I can come up with more than that with VIN#s in short order. My understanding is that Europe likes sticks far more than Americans as well. 1% is pure BS and obvious on the face of it.

Dave

 

I kinda agree to this. C&D and R&T are reliable but they are humans as well. In fact, I personally do know a few people who work as editors and from what I hear, a lot of the data (even the 0-60 times) are sometimes manipulated. I'm quite sure if you write a letter to C&D and R&T editor's office about this and say "I'm from Ferrari Forum and I'm quite sure it's not 1% but close to 5~10% sticks versus total number of F430 sales", then they will with no questions asked admit it and send out a "correction" letter on the column somewhere in the magazine. ;-) In fact, there are lots of "corrections" here and there if you read the magazines carefully. Me, myself am a subscriber to all three magazines C&D, R&T and MT since 1988 and I have seen a lot of errors and when brought up, they are very good at admitting. Oh, C&D and R&T are related (Don't know exactly how they are related or how much they are shared but they are related) so whatever the information you see from one, is often shared with another so it's not really uncommon to see "Less than 1%..." phrase from both magazines.

To my calculations, I think it's more than 1% and to me it actually seemed even more than 10%. My 06 F430 that I had and sold for my 458 was a 6 speed manual and when I bought that car, it was quite hard to find but it wasn't impossible. I would say 1 out of every 25 I meet and see were 6 speed manuals (gated shifter in case some people could say 6 SMG is manual as well).

Anyway, there is no really a good point to argue about this unless you want to point out the fact that "I'm smarter than others" or "I'm more accurate than others". So, let's be more friendly with each other and use the expression "I think" or "In my opinion" instead of definite expressions. ;-)

Enjoy your Ferraris this weekend~!

 

Sticks in general are more popular in Europe but for different reasons (average cars mostly underpowered compacts or smaller).
Euro Ferrari buyers are more tech savvy then in US and opt for new technology instead of lamenting the loss of "horses and buggies"....
Dual clutch and the 458 work so well together that puting a stick in that car would be akin to replacing the CCBs with drum brakes.
Similarly pointless.....

 

It is what it is and whether or not the automotive press got it right or were fooled into being shills for FNA to further their own agenda I doubt we will ever learn for sure.

When I decided it was time to buy a Ferrari just a few weeks back, I was going to look for a 430 Spider with the 6-speed manual, not the F1. I miss shifting gears, same as most of you who also lament the fact that Ferrari chose to do away with it. But when I read that report about "fewer than 1%" (even if it said 10%), I shied away from that idea because of resale value. If indeed only 1 in 10 preferred the manual over the F1, then when I go to resell mine I'll have effectively limited my potential buyers by 90%, and that's got to kill resale value and make the car sit for a long time unsold. I found a few cars online that seemed to be very well priced - about $10K - $20K under what comparable cars were selling for - and then I realized why: those cars had the stick, so it's pretty clear that already they do not command the same dollars as comparably-equipped F1 cars.

If I were looking for a really long-term investment, I'd buy one of those cars because they will be very collectible in 30 years. But I live in the present so once I decided I wasn't getting a stick and saw that a low mileage F430 Spider was going to cost me $225K or so, I decided it would be smarter to order a 458 Coupe and thus put myself into position to order the eventual Spider since I'd already have a good relationship with my dealer based on my Coupe purchase, so that's what I did. If I could afford to buy a low mileage F430 Spider in the interim, I would, but not if it also means giving up my Bentley to do so.

Believe me, I wasn't looking for an argument with anyone when I made my post. I was simply stating a fact that I'd read and when I was challenged on it by someone I don't know who didn't put forth anything more than he'd heard it from a lot of people, I was dubious. It seems that FNA may indeed be fibbing about the true number and then again it may be that the 1% only applies to '09 Scuderias, the latest stats they could cite. Maybe Ferrari assumed that demand had dropped to as little as 1% and thus decided it's not worth offering both.

My suggestion to all those who are upset over the deletion of the manual is to contact FNA and register your displeasure. Maybe they will offer it as an extra-cost option. But ask yourself: Would you pay extra to get the 6-speed manual?

 

I understand your reasoning though another factor is that used buyers don't always have the same mindset as new buyers. Some years ago, the local F store manager told me he was paying more for 360s with sticks the reason being that once the cars were out of warranty, buyers were more wary of the additional repair costs and used buyers being end users (who are not worried about resale) bought what they really wanted. A detailed, statistical analysis of prices done by one of our members earlier this year bears out what I was told. In the current FML, there are six spiders with sticks and I can't discern any pattern on pricing vs the paddle cars.

Dave

 

Again, I based my statement on ads I'd seen in which the manual car was way underpriced. Here's an example of an '09 Spider in resale red with only 300 miles going for $15K less than comparable F1 cars and yet it has been for sale for many weeks with no takers:
http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/Search/DRauSearchDetails.aspx?itemid=801281
There was another, and if I find it I'll add the link. Whenever I found a seeming bargain, it turned out to be priced so low because it had the manual, so I made the assumption that the fact that there are only 1 in 10 who want the manual transmission, the price is right. Supply and demand. Small supply and small demand.

 

That wouldn't surprise me on 2009s which still have long warranties and MSRP is about 12K higher to start with. Check earlier years and you'll see the premium disipates.

Dave

 

Asking prices can be all over the place. You have to look at selling prices and we are not always privy to that info. I only speak from experience when I was looking. I saw no difference in pricing F1 vs manual. I bought a late November build 07 spider.

I believe the manual transmission car's value will remain the same or better than the F1.
One reason is the scarcity, the other is the old school sports car mentality, and third the maintenance will be less on it than the F1. Plus they are the last of the gated shifter cars.

 

Ahhh, manual shift, cigarette lighter, big hair and shoulder pads. If only we could get back to the past.

 

I miss more personal involvement from the "start of the engine":
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I think the unfortunate downside to all this technology, is that for a regular person, who
can't afford the new cars, can still get into a 360, 355, 328, 308 etc. But in the future, this won't be the case because the technology, when it goes wrong, you'll have to be very well off to afford the fixes. So I don't see the 458 being the 308-328's 15-20 years from now.

 

To dislike a manual transmission because it is an 'old' method of changing gears is just plain ridiculous. If you want credibility, please use a different argument ...... such as reliability, more enjoyable (if that is the case) etc.

If you want to be consistent, then please do not drink 'old' wine, please dislike the Mona Lisa and the 250 GTO because they are both 'old', do not have sex because that method has been around for thousands of years (artificial insemination is 'new technology') ..........

Call me 'stuck in the past' but I still enjoy a great many things, the 'old' fashoined way .........................

 

No offense intended, but that's a really daft post you just made.

Applying the term 'old' to technology is entirely different from applying it to something like, say, art. Saying the Mona Lisa is 'old' merely dates the piece. In fact it could be an indication of superiority if, like myself, you consider it the creation of an age when people worked to make art rather than just said it was art. Indeed, the fact that something created in 1506 can still pack out a gallery every day of the week makes 'old' a very good thing in this case. But when it comes to technology... well, better than the wine, Mona Lisa or sex examples would be to ask, would you rather be using a slide rule than a computer to work out complicated math? Maybe you'd like your television to only have 3 channels, be in black and white and have a 12" screen? Would you rather have written your post with a quill on parchment and had a man on horseback deliver it to each one of us rather than sit at you keyboard and post an instant response? Probably not. But you still prefer your cutting edge 21st century car to be built around a gearbox that was designed before many of this forum's members were born...

If you enjoy a stick then I feel your pain. But, personally, despite being able to heel and toe with the best of 'em, I find paddles more fun.

 

No one's going to win the paddles/ manual argument, but why couldn't they at least give the small numbers crowd the option. I'm guessing although the few of us wanting manual wouldn't put big dollars in their pockets, most of us have been loyal customers for many years. Just give us a choice, even if we can't be the fastest around a track.

 

Whatever the pros and cons, it's going to take a long time to get used to seeing a Ferrari without that iconic stick between the seats.

 

The last Ferrari super car to have a stick was the F50. I don't hear many people saying, "I will keep my F50 forever because it is the last stick supercar". Once the Enzo and the CS were F1 only, the die was cast I am afraid.

In my mind stick is best with a raw unelectronic car which by definition is a classic car.

For new cars, why not enjoy the rewards of lightening fast advances in technology?

 

It has nothing to do with age, it has to do with the Ferrari Brand Position, which is "winning." The stick shift doesn't support this brand position any longer.

 

I don't believe the 'manual vs auto-manual' debate can really be won. Neither shifter is ideal in every way. Manuals cannot be shifted as quickly, consistently or as easily as the best auto-manuals (which are quite impressive bits of engineering/technology). On the other hand, auto-manuals are not as interactive, tactile, skill-building or rewarding as a well driven manual.

In terms of driver enjoyment, one is not a total substitute for the other. Unfortunately, ever tightening emissions standards and fuel mileage requirements may ultimately seal the manual's demise.

 

I agree entirely. Its like arguing which is better? Vanilla or Chocolate? I think the bigger issue is why Ferrari won't simply bow to demand and offer the extra pedal as an option so if you are a Ferrari owner or have one on order, now's the time to reach out to FNA and speak your mind. I think they've made a mistake by doing this on the 458. On the Italia I can see that decision not ruffling any feathers but not on their premier performance car.

 

Yes, now close this thread.

 

Agreed, it would be nice if those who would like the option at least mention it to the dealer. If enough requests came through they would at least take some notice after a few years.....If it was an upcharge I would pay for it.

 

Not true. Sign up for the Ferrari driving school and after lapping Mt. Tremblant in 458 (you driving) I bet you would revise this statement.

 

True that. You can never really say anything these days before having an extensive lesson/drive.

 

I know I would definitely be impressed with the dual-clutch's track performance, but I would not revise my previous statement. Holding the left paddle down as the car rapid-fire blips/downshifts and pulling the right paddle for upshifts is not my definition of interactive, tactile, skill-building or rewarding. Plus, I didn't say the F1 was totally void of these things, just that the manual offers more (I said the auto-manuals are not as...).

Using the F1 shifter is certainly enjoyable and less fatiguing, but it's not an action or a skill in the same sense as operating a manual. Sure, the driver must know when to pull the paddle, but that's just giving an order. The system is manipulating the throttle, clutch(es) and gears. With a manual car, the driver performs these tasks. You can't do less and be as or more involved, that's just the way it is.

Progress is progress - the F1 system is higher performing, so it's here to stay. But, I stand by my statement that it's not a total substitute for a manual.