If it can be conclusively proven that team orders were issued, and that Massa did not give way of his own free will: In my opinion, enough of a time penalty should be added to Alonso's time so to place him back behind Massa, as the finish should have been. And the team should forfeit all its constructor points for the race, without the drivers losing their points, since they were just following orders.
Half of the people posting here are objective and the other half remind me of this guy Image Unavailable, Please Login
If the FIA decide this is what happened then Massa, instead of Ferrari as a whole, should lose WDC points. Sorry I agree Mad Max here, Ferrari should have WDC points removed. If Ferrari don't like the rule, get it removed off track ... don't fnck with races. Pete
Nothing like change the order of finish with a contrived pass. Nothing like accept and not challenge a significant fine levied at the race. They didnt appeal. They did nothing but make a joke of a good race. Nothing? Have another drink.
Lucky for you I've forgotten all about it. Please remind me. I'm right so rarely, being married and all
Something about the number of threads on this subject before September 8th and we still have a fortnight left
That seemed fairly obvious at the time I must admit. There are never enough dead horses around here to beat
I count myself as an attentive F1 fan. I'd quite like to see a system implemented whereby teams get a limited number (say 2 or 3?) of team orders over a whole a season. Make it perfectly permissible, but it has to be made plain over the radio what the team order is so that the fans can follow it. Then fans know that a driver is responding to team orders and not just being useless or lacking in pace. Once those two or three orders are used up, then that's it - they're gone and any further attempts to manipulate a race are severely punished. I think that if a driver truly warrants being the 'lead' driver in a team, then there shouldn't be more than 2 or 3 instances in a season where he needs his team mate to deliberately step out of the way. And yes, I'd quite like Moseley to go away. He's no longer FIA President and therefore shouldn't be making any such "we" comments on the behalf of the governing body - as others noted above, it was an extremely irritating comment to read. All the best, Andrew.
Do you really think that adding another layer of complication is the way to go? The rules already look like they were designed by Rube Goldberg.
In the hope that, if you allow a small number of "official" team orders, then the "unofficial" ones may not be needed and the racing is more honest. I don't mind team orders, I just want to know when they happen and don't want them influencing EVERY race. All the best, Andrew.
Sounds like micro-managment to me. "Just one more tweak will make things fine" If F1 is a competition between teams (as it traditionally has been) team orders are needed and natural. If we've decided that F1 should be about personalities and that drivers are more important than teams, then team orders are wrong. No points for guessing where I come down on this issue
Not quite as a open and shut case as that D IMO. The problem is because right now there is a rule that says no team orders or to that effect. But you would have to be a totally nuts to believe it does not go on. So in the worst case you could do a Webber (save fuel mode) and Vettel (flat out mode) move, and crash in to each other, in this case I believe the team wanted Vettel to win it. Then you have the case of Hamilton I assume he is on fuel/engine save and Button on flat out mode, Ham asking his team for reassurance that JB will not over take him, but he does then Ham realizes turns the wick back up quick and we have a little excitement, as until the call comes JB pack it in Fuel save mode please, in other words hold station. Now this it seems is all acceptable in the eyes of the FIA and public. But as I have said before Ferrari, and in one sense I can understand them, think balls to this we are not hiding the fact FA is the one we want to win this race he has a better chance of having a shot at the WDC than Massa. What they did was harp back to days when Rubens and MS were doing there juggling act, the very reason the rule came in, thats the problem. Well ok, I don't want to even think about the betting side of things with this issue, but IMO if Ferrari had said, Phil you need to go into fuel save or turn the engine down your cooking it ect, I really don't think we would have this problem, but we have because they stuck two fingers up when they did it, so from a sporting stand point it does not look good, so the FIA has to be seen to be doing something about it. And then of course we have all the haters and whoever crawling out of the wood work slamming Ferrari, it could have been dealt with so much easier with the right call, from Smedley in the first place. But who knows maybe Ferrari wanted this to happen to sort it out.
+1 Has JT said *anything* on the issue? I know he's reclused himself from the hearing, but beyond that he seems very quiet. I reckon this would be the perfect opportunity for the new, all powerful head of the FIA to come out and say "F1 is about the teams, team orders are a part of that, and as long as the team involved announces it's intention to allow a to pass b, we're good!" - I like Andrews "you gotta make it obvious" concept so "we" know what's going on, but I have absolutely no problem with team orders. IMO, those who are outraged at this don't understand F1 or it's history. "It's always been about the team!" Cheers, Ian
My point is where we go from here. I've had enough of the back and forth about Germany at this point. Until we make the fundamental choice between driver and team and get rid of unenforceable rules we'll just be replaying the same comedy.
The problem is that you have two parallel championships, the WCC & the WDC. Ferrari manipulated the WDC in the German GP end of story.
Your right of course... But so damn easy to avoid though, thats my gripe. Fast Ian... Todt is keeping his distance I like that fact and I suppose has more reason then ever to on this issue. As regards the vague rules, it all depends on who has the final say with them, and I'am happy it is not Mosley, and right now since Mosley turned his vemon on Luca I'am sure he is glad also.
You're right thta we should give Todt and the "new" FIA a chance to F up before piling on. But that's just not how the inter-web works
1. Max is entitled to his opinion. 2. Who ares what Max thinks anymore? 3. For now, team orders are banned and should be properly enforced and penalized until they are allowed. 4. Ferrari needs to be reminded of the rules via a series of penalties and/or suspensions commensurate with the crime, such as drop Alonso back to where he would have finished behind Massa, then deduct Alonso's team points. Also, suspend the team manager 1 or more races (if anything for a stupidly obvious violation of the rule!). Money? Well, Ferrari seems to have plenty, but these other things are not easily offset. 5. Someone please finally make a decision about team orders and stick with it. Personally, I don't like them and everyone should race wholeheartedly. However, if a driver belongs to a team that thinks like a team inside and out, then who needs team orders? It just naturally happens. F1 racing with multiple cars (not teams) is not really a team sport unless you look at it as Team Driver 1 and Team Driver 2.
