458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

I'm sure there are Ferrari guys who wouldn't know where Modena was on a map. Its all relative.

Most everybody would recognize the name Mclaren F1 but asking them to describe the companys most recent endeavors would most likely yield little to no conversation.

Ferrari has a bigger chunk of culture than the more aficionado oriented Mclaren.


_J

 

I don't think anyone thinks the Mp4-12's looks are anything to write home about.

 

It has a face only a mother could love.

 

The last car to do large side intakes right was the 355. Everything after that looks either weak or gawdy.

 

The SLR did not have it all. First, they built too many of them. Second, it wasn't a joy to drive. Also, the looks thing as others have mentioned. The F1 had it all but it was too pricey for the economic climate.

Also, McLaren may have a market here since Ferrari and Lamborghini may have romanced the wrong crowd, and many who want a supercar do not want to be associated with that crowd.

 

Valid point, IMO there are a lot of Ferrari owners whom would prefer, to not necessarily be known as a Ferrari owner amongst the general public, given the sometimes negative perception there.

 

LOL

 

Saw it last night at the Pfaff event in Toronto and it was seriously stunning, both inside and out. The construction and attention to detail of this car is remarkable, as evidenced by examining the rolling chassis that they also brought along.

The lines, particularly at the front, are much more aggressive when you see the car in the flesh. The interior is also amazing. Something about having the carbon tub wrap around you feels very cool, even from the passenger side.

I did find getting in and out to be a bit of a challenge and yes, while there is tons of headroom and legroom, shoulder to shoulder width is cozy. The visual effect, however, of the dihedral doors in their open (and opening) state is awesome.

Let the naysaying and ever-present ferrarichat negativity continue, but I had high expectations for my first view of the car and they were definitely met. To the original poster's question, there is definitely a lot about the 12C to consider, in lieu of a 458.

 

The Porsche GT 2 RS is a serious contender vs either of these. It's Ring Time fully street legal is amazing and much faster than a 458.

 

Yet it's the same design Porsche has used from the 1600's. Boring.

 

This is exactly my point. There will ALWAYS be a faster car. And, few will ever get the true potential out of them.

People buy super cars not for what they do with them but for how they make them FEEL.

McLaren does not have the same panache as Ferrari or Lamborghini to many in the US. Just having a faster car is not going to be enough to make people switch from one to the next.

If it were just about speed, every Ferrari car earlier than the F430 would have a value of zero. No one would want a 308. No one would want a 246 Dino. These cars aren't fast today compared to something as common as a Nissan.

There is a lot more to owning a super car than numbers. McLaren's F1 involvement gives it credibility in Europe but very little "fantasy excitement" in the US --whose best known car racer is a girl in a bikini.

 

+1

 

The August sales numbers show that Porsche/MB/and Audi are serious competition. All of their number were up sharply and Ferrari's were down. Some of that product isn't direct competition but some of it is. Ferrari's are cool and aspirational but the new Gullwing, GT 2RS, and V10 R8 Spyder are too and sales of those are rising as the August numbers show.

The 458 winding up on CNN as a fire risk recall isn't the best for Ferrari sales either.

The Customer out reach by McLaren is very impressive MUCH more user friendly than Ferrari's.

 

Because they HAVE to be to survive. Every customer they get will come from someone who could have bought a 458 or lambo.

Like I've said before, competition improves the breed. I welcome McLaren entering the market. I think it's a good thing. I think it may keep F car waiting lists lower and dealing with dealers easier.

Here is McLaren's target:

Disappointed or bored F & L car owners (been there... done that)
Owners of F & L cars who want to add to the stable
Collectors
Speculators
People with money who have to have the latest "thing"

What they will NOT get is people who just have to drive "A McLaren". Put a Jag or a Aston Martin badge on it and now see how many get exicted.

There is no way MC is going to sell anything near what the 458 will do in the US. That's been my point. Ron is dreaming when he says so.

 

Survive? McLaren financials are very solid and unlike Ferrari's parent FIAT haven't bet their future on C which IMO may come to haunt.

There were a lot of people at Pebble who were very impressed with McLarens out reach in a very user friendly way. Their post Pebble follow up is also impressive. IMO the average 458 potential customer wasn't treated nearly as well nor given the opportunity for a long test drive before ordering. The McLaren isn't as good looking as the 458 but they are working on that and if they get it right they will be VERY competitive in this segment.

Spin all you want but the August numbers show that in a month where the luxury manufactures including BTW Maserati were sharply up Ferrari was down.

Time will tell and we shall see but IMO Ferrari needs to do serous work and I'm glad that they replaced the putz who was Pres. of FNA with someone who is up to the task.

 

Well, this is factory time, so cannot be easily compared to Auto Motor times. Let's wait for the supertest before we jump to conclusions.

 

you know, a side by side pic of the mp4-12c and the 458 would be interesting. any of you computer jockeys have that handy?

is it just me or is that name stupid. i get it that they are trying to latch onto the f1 nomenclature and get some lift out of that, but frankly its a mouthful of numbers and it does not evoke anything to me.

they should have given it a name of some kind that would bring to mind something cool. a person or an achievement or a track, but something !!!
macca have so much to choose from too. the senna, the silverstone, the spa, eaux rouge, etc etc.

 

How about nose-to-nose?

>8^)
ER
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I meant survive in the market. I wasn't infuring that they would fold as a company. Number 2 always has to work harder... that's true for any business. If they don't work harder, then they will certainly fail. So, I expect them to do so.

 

Completely disagree.

Number one has to work just a little bit harder to, you know, stay number one.


That nose-to-nose photo is interesting. To my eye, there isn't a great difference - they both look good.

 

Obviously, you've never been a number 2. Number two's always have to work harder. It's a lot easier for the leader to stay the leader than their competitors taking their place.

Since so many haven't read my posts, let me just sum it up once and for all:

1) I'm happy McLaren is entering the market. I think it will make Ferrari and Lamborghini better as competition improves the breed. Lambo has done that to Ferrari since Audi got involved. I see no difference here.

2) I think the McLaren will be a faster and more sophisticated car than the 458. I think to a lot of people, that won't matter but to some, it will mean everything.

3) I think McLaren is going to have a tough time overcoming (in the US market) it's lack of a brand name or romance associated with it.

4) I think McLaren recognizes this and will work hard to get buyers who would normally have bought an F or L car.

5) I think Ron Dennis' sales expectations will be dashed when he finds out that just building a better, faster car instantly gets him lots customers in this market.

6) I think that buying a super car is more than just numbers. It's how you feel when owning it. Pride of ownership means a lot to someone forking over $300K.

I'm done.

 

I'd prefer to see one photo of two actual cars side-by-side because I believe the 458 will make the whatever-it's-called look plain by comparison.