125 and 159

For me the only situation in which the body of the cars were rebuilt was after an accident.
I know three accident of 125S and 159S.
1st - Late August 1947, Bazzi with 159S for Livorno, car destroyed.
2nd - September 1947 (9 or 21, I'm not sure), with Righetti, the car was a 159S for Modena.
3th - Late 1947, with a not-identified car.
At Livorno raced only the 125S 01C with the original full-wight body (picture in "Tipo 166" page 12, with a wrong caption), so the first accident car wasn't 01C.
At Modena raced the new 002C and a full-wight body roadster: I don't know if it was 125S or 159S, and so if it was 01C or 02C(001S). Picture in "Tipo 166" page 13.
In 1948 there was only a roadster, with a different body, probably after the 3th accident, and it was tipo 166S.

 

Or July? I have different informations from different sources (or there were two accidents).

 

Interesting question #2.I have never been able to find out when Ramponi made his visit to Ferrari as a sales rep for Tont Vandervell"s thinwall bearings. As far as I can tell it was some time in late 1947 or early 1948. Colombo had been searching for a solution for the bearing problem resulting from the traditional bearings which could not reliably take the higher RPMs required to get the power expected from the V12. Colombo and Rasmponi apparently convinced Ferrari this could be the solution and the transition took place quickly.One of the interesting things about this is that Tony Vandervell got the exclusive rights to the American "thinwall" bearing technology which had been developed in the late 1930s by the Americans for use in aircraft engines. Ramponi's prewar connections with Ferrari during the Alfa Scuderia days and later his success as a racing mechanic for drivers like Dick Seaman in Britain gave him a great opportunity after the war to sell British products in Europe.Anyway I thought the thinwall bearings were part of the 159 development project.Hopefully Michael can expand on this. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

01C and 02C were 56klg frames including the larger diameted main tubes and the central cross brace.These were the first two frames delivered by GILCO. IMO the frame in this picture would have to be a 44klg frame possibly for 001.I am not clear how many 44klg frames were built. From what I understanf the 44klg frame was quickly scrapped as it proved that the crossbracing and larger tubes were required to properly stiffen the chassis. As 001 disapeared in Portugal(?) sometime in the mid 1950s we may never know. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

I didn’t say “never existed”, but there had been only very few races for 1500 cc race cars.
In fact I know only one which was Roma on 5 June 1947, which nevertheless was a hord of 1100 cc Cisitalias D46 plus a single 1500 cc Ferrari. However, a few days earlier there had been also a 1100 cc race, “Primavera Romana del Motore” lasted 11 days from 25 May to 5 June and had lots of individual races.
For sports cars the situation was better, most races had 1100 cc and also 1500 cc classes, but not all of them. The MM and Pescara skipped the 1500 class in favour of 2000 cc.
The fixing of classes had been fully by organizer’s decision, so they did whatever attracted the most contenders. The Cisitalias D46 had been extremyl popular in those days, but there had been nearly no (unsupercharged) 1500 cc race cars around. So why taking care of them?

The situation changed when – if I remember correctly in summer 1947 - the FIA introduced the new 1948 F2 with 2000 cc together with an also new international sports car formula with also 2 litres. Ferrari took up the old siluro idee and built 002(C) as prototype for a new series customer race cars which could be entered in both series.

As far I remember the Clevite (Vandervell thin wall) bearings had been used by Ferrari not earlier than the end of 1947, thus first for the tipo 166.

 

My believe is that after Firenze (20 July) 02C (the cycle fender car) was rebuilt as roadster and equipped with the first 159 engine for Pescara (15 Aug). At Livorno (24 Aug) only 01C (with Nuvolari) still with 125 engine was entered. Bazzi crashed 02C, no idea whether before or after Livorno. It was repaired and had now a slightly different nose. The 159 engine was mounted into 01C for Righetti for Modena (28 Sep), which he crashed afaik during training. Thus Righetti was forced to take 02C with the 125 engine. Either the 159 engine was damaged as result of the accident, or they simply decided that's it's better to start in the 1.5 litre class, as in the class >1.5 there had been more powerful cars like 2.5 litre Alfas. The 3rd accident must have been 02C again, as for 1948 it had again a different nose. 01C was not rebuilt as such, but found a new identity. Whether as 010I or something else I leave open.

All this is documented by lots of photos which I do not post here due to potential copyright problems. But for me the logical sequence is fully given.

 

This is the point of which I'm not convinced. For me 02C after Firenze was scrapped (most likely after an accident) and his place was taken by 001, a completely new car built on the new 44kg chassis (*) with new engine and new body.

At Livorno were registered Cortese and Nuvolari, but raced only Nuvolari with 01C because 001 was been crashed by Bazzi after Pescara and 002 wasn't finished yet. 02C was been scrapped so it cannot race.

This is a race on which I have to think.

I don't believe in 01C-010I, for me 01C became the full-wight roadster of MM and Pescara '48 (I don't believe in 02C-020I too), and 001(02C) became the spyder Allemano that we already know.


I know the odd-even chassis division, but for me it started in early 1948 with the Inter series, and from 001 to 004 the cars are not divided. The "S" of chassis 001 could be added for the C.O. when it was sold, and when the odd-even division already existed.

(*)When were the new 44kg chassis delivered?

 

You are clearly wrong as even # Inter 002(C) was built in 1947.

 

If your theory shall work 02C has to disappear, which you simply explain by crash and scrapping. When? Where? Who? Any photos or press articles? If a damage was so heavy that the car was beyond repair you can be sure that the accident was fatal. In those days even cars had been repaired where we today can only shake our heads.

In earlier postings you wrote "Why the only Cycle fender 125S should be transformed in a Roadster?", and "For me the transformation of a cycle fendered 125S in a full weight roadster 159S is unlikely", but now you let the siluro die and substitute it by a roadster?! Sorry, but where's the logic?

And last but not least - if 001S was the Pescara roadster, which cars were driven at the 1948 Giro di Sicilia / Targa Florio by
(a) Prince Igor Troubetskoy / Clemente Biondetti, and
(b) Franco Cortese / Nando Righetti?
And what about the 1948 MM? I'm curious to see your proposals for
(a) Cortese / Marchetti, and
(b) Sterzi / Righetti

 

Clearly wrong about wath? I don't understand your post. Yes, 002(C) was built in 1947, but its story was indipendent and well known, my doubts are about 01C, 02C and 001S.

Unfortunately I was waiting for this reply.
I agree that there is no logic, if 02C disappered just before the first race of 001S, they should be the same car.
I haven't got any documentation of a crash of 02C, only a note about an accident in july '47, but I don't have the source, so...

But I don't change my idea. Someone sais that Ferrari didn't like 56kg chassis and give them back to Gilco. I don't believe this, a chassis is to much expensive. But if in july-august '47 Ferrari had one (or two) new 44kg chassis it is possible that he stored an old one (the cycle-fendered one, which was slower), also because to race all the cars could be very expensive for him.
My only real base for this theory is the chassis numeration, because I don't believe that chassis 002(C) was built some months before chassis 001S. I know you don't agree with me, and I don't know if I'm right or I'm doing a very big error.

TF48
001S Troubetskoy/Biondetti #36
01C Cortese/Righetti #10

MM48
001S Sterzi/Righetti #178
01C Cortese/Marchetti #10

001S was rebodied after the accident before Modena, and 01C was rebodied after it crashed in the end of 1947. How do you explain the finish of 02C in 1948? (excluding 02C-020I story)
MPC

 

Wrong about this:

"I know the odd-even chassis division, but for me it started in early 1948 with the Inter series, and from 001 to 004 the cars are not divided. The "S" of chassis 001 could be added for the C.O. when it was sold, and when the odd-even division already existed."

It clearly started in 1947 not "Early 1948". 002 (C) is an even numbered Inter build and raced in 1947.

 

So why could 01C be rebodied after a crash, but not 02C??

Talking about chronological sequences, why was 010I built some months before 008I?

 

TRUE - 002(C) was the first car with the features of the Inter series, with a cycle-fendered body, a 2 litre engine (1.9 for this car) and the second chassis-type.

FALSE - 002(C) and 004C didn't born as Inter, but as 159/166 Sport Spyder COmpetizione (or Corsa). When the Inter series begin, in november/december 1947, they were called Inter because they had the same features of the new cars (from 006I).

Michael Müller posted about this and confirm this:

 

002 (C)'s COA clearly lists it as an Inter. That said when it was first built it was a 159.

 

But 02C didn't crash ever! No photos, no documents.
You said it was rebodied without need of a new body, the old one was simply removed. Is it possible??
MPC

 

Jim, that's correct, but you know quite well that the c/o was issued on 30 Dec 1947, whereas the car as such was raced as works car as early as September. Thus it was born as Corsa, but sold as Inter.

 

002's CO, if I remember correctly, was made on 30 december 1947, when the Inter series already existed.
When 002 was built there were no idea of the future Inter series!
MPC

 

Sorry, but YOU are trying to tell us that it was crashed and scrapped!

Why not? Standard procedure in those days.

 

For me 001 and 002 were the normal evolution of 01C and 02C.
The formers (number 1) were roadsters for long speed races, the latters (number 2) were sport spyder competizione (or corsa), for road slow races.
01C and 02C were built on the two 56kg chassis.
001 and 002 were built on the two new 44kg chassis.
With 003 and 004 Ferrari decided to separate odd and even numbers, and started the Inter series with 006I, following the last SC/Inter, 004C.

 

I change my opinion, now I think it was only stored, and the same happened to 01C, which was used only at Livorno because it was the only available car.

 

You changed it a bit too often within such a short period. Historic research has nothing to do with believings and opinions, it's accumulating facts. I withdraw now from this discussion.

 

I'm sorry if I give you this impression.
The problem is that I haven't a lot of iformations, and my purpose starting this discussion was to clarify my doubt.
I change my hypotesis (in the scientific meaning of the word) when you demonstrate me that my version was not proved or possible. I think this is normal.
However my own general hypotesis of the story never change.
MPC

 

Historic research is the way to reach a better theory for historic events.
When we discuss about a theory, we have different hypotesis, but in the end of the research there must be a single theory, or the discussion never reach an end.
So to finish the discussion we have to confirm the "offical" theory or to confirm the new theory, and someone has to change his own hypotesis.
This is not the place to discuss what a historic research is, so with this post I don't want to start a new discussion.

 

This is the centre of my hypotesis.
My opinion is that 001 came before 002, and that the first even series was the Inter series (006I-016I). The differences between 001 and 002 were only in the body, and they were both 159 Sport. In my opinion 004C was the first car created as "Corsa", and not as "Sport".
I don't know any fact which prove my theory, but I don't know facts that deny it too.
MPC

 

Interesting, this is the first mention I have that more than one 44klg chassis was delivered. I may well have missed something along the way but I have always suspected there was more than one.As 001 disapeared in Sicily[not Portugal as I stated before but with a ? to cover my a..s] and 002 is clearly a 44klg chassis, were there more? I again go back to the schematics of 010 which appear to show a 44klg chassis. Comments????? just one man's opinion tongascrew