FAB speed sport CAT review for F430 - The CAT become glowing RED hot

Fabspeeds and Capristo's sport cats are both 200 (Fabspeed sport cats are German)

 

Look at this Capristo video (from 7:00) of a Scud with the full Capristo system and you will see how red the cats can get. Lot's of impressive flames too!

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Capristoexhaust#p/u/0/qu95SSMYbOw

It's worth to consider the Capristo heat shield wrappers as shown in the beginning of the video, even on a full stock exhaust line.

 

All our Sport Cats are 200 Cell Tri -Metallic HJS Sport Cats.

 

Hello Stefvan,
We have also 200 Celler of HJS, the company HSJ is 20 KM. away from us. HJS we know well, HJS purchased from us our patented exhaust valves.

we use a 130mm diameter, so that the back pressure is reduced.

Ciao Antonio

 

Thanks Antonio.

Do your sport cats have an identical operation temperature as the stock F430 cats? (400-800C as per the Work Shop Manual) This is quite important as the thermocouple sensors are situated between the headers and the cats and the DME may be trigger a Slow Down alert if the temperature is getting above the maximum operating temperature.

Thanks

 

Hi to all.
Lndshrk you nailed the temperatures right on the head and your explanation is correct. We at Capristo Exhaust would like to add the following.

It is very important that the catalytic converters reach the correct temperature in order to ensure the correct functionality. If the catalytic converters are too cold . . . then they do not fulfill the requirement and the check engine light will go on.



There are two possibilities through which you can bring the catalytic converter to the proper temperature where the check engine light will not go on. You either use small catalytic converters and through the higher back pressure they become very hot, the check engine light will stay off, but you have noticeably less power than the standard units. Many believe that the car runs better this way because it screams more. But this scream is actually caused by a higher back pressure and should be taken as a scream of help from the engine and not as an advantage.



To clarify . . . original 400-cell means 400 holes on 1 square inch.



The sport catalytic converter 200-cell, that means 200 holes on 1 square inch, means, since there are less holes, that they are automatically bigger and let more exhaust gases pass through. And that is also the role of the sport catalytic converter.



But there are no advantages compared to the standard when you take the original 400-cell metal cats, that have a diameter of approximately 140mm, and install a 200-cell cat instead, that have a diameter of 105mm. In this case, the 200-cell cats let less exhaust gases pass through than the original ones and will also cost you in performance.



We have often discussed this with Antonio Capristo (our manufacturer in Germany) as we also wanted to have 200-cell cats where the check engine light would not come on. We would have to reduce the diameter so that they would also become hot enough during normal driving and the check engine light would not go on. But we have always refused to install such small cats because we want the engines to scream with delight and not because they are suffering.



We used big 200-cell cats and made several tries, but the problem was that they did not become hot enough because the heat radiated into the engine compartment. Because of this, the engine compartment grew very hot, which lead to the air filter housing, which are located directly above the cats, also becoming very hot. And in the end, warm intake air costs power, everyone knows that, and we had the drawback that the check engine light turned on.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDtCKjKx2K8



On this video, you can observe how the cats stay much cooler because there was no heat protectors. But even though we had not heat protectors, we had a cooler engine compartment than the standard, because we had constructed the exhaust in such a way that the exhaust gases go out in a straight flow. There are a lot less pipes, which also explains why our exhaust is 24 kg lighter than the standard. Take note of the cats. The same exhaust system is on the next link.



In this video, you can see how the same system with insulation around the manifold and cats, insulates the heat so well that the cats, even though they are big 200-cell, also reach the right temperature even during normal driving. This has great advantages. The cats do not lose any heat and therefore the check engine light does not go on. The engine compartment does not get any damaging heat from the exhaust system. All components such as the hydraulic hoses, carbon parts, axle boots, engine brackets, air filter housings and everything else is protected. But . . . most important are the tanks!! What happens in an accident when the tanks are damaged?? For all the money in the world, I do not want to be the dealer of an exhaust system with which a car burned and the driver with it. It also does not need to be an accident . . . how easy is it for an oil or fuel hose to break?? When something happens, where people get hurt . . . this cannot be paid off with any amount of money. So, we either bring something on the market that enhance the safety of humans and the car, or we don’t do it at all. When something happens, then we want to be able to say that we did everything from our side to meet or exceed the safety standards.



On this video, you can see that the heat comes completely out of the end pipes and negligible heat is distributed inside the engine compartment.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu95SSMYbOw

 

Andréa taurino thank for such eloquent explanation. The chat needs more Knowledgeable guys like you that knows what they are taking about, Thank

 

Andrea,

Thanks for the great information and the pointers to the videos. I'm very impressed by the information provided. Very good to see all the extra heat protection, even in the first video where they blanketed in front of the tanks. I've recently added extra heat protection in front of my tanks, though not as thick as what was shown.

Do you know if the dyno results are posted (non-video format) somewhere. I'd love to have a better look at the detailed numbers in a non-moving form. Thanks.


Lou

 

Thank you very much Andrea for your great input. I agree with Gerald that the chat needs some real technical input like you provide. We all like to know more in details how to improve our cars but not at the price of sacrifying security and reliability. There are many solutions on the market but most of them will reduce power and engine reliability for the price of a better sound which is nonsense to me.

I would like to continue this most interesting thread with the following questions :

- Do your headers resolve the issues we have with the stock headers which will sooner or later leak and how did you resolve these issues?
- The fact that the Capristo headers don’t have the pre-cats, would that alter the measurements taken by the front Lambda and Thermocouple giving wrong information to the DME? Is there a risk that from different measurements, the DME would decide to run the engine richer or leaner? Or show a “Slow Down” alert because the measured temperature would now be higher?
- Do your sports cats have a higher quality and efficiency than the stock cats (stock cats will sooner or later fail and well before the cars lifetime)? Do they have the same operating temperatures as the stock cats (400-800 C)?

Many thanks,
Stef

Lou, I got this dynochart from Antonio Capristo which is for the Scuderia as shown in the video.
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Hello StefVan,
the originals are even without catalysts.
the normal 430 has a catalyst, and there are also some without, that is the information I have.
Pininfarina has exhakt these manifolds and catalysts used, they build the Lancia Stratos on the base of the 430 Scuderia, which is a series of 25 cars, all with this Capristo system
Do you believe that Pininfarina uses a system that does not work?
after the presentation I will send you pictures as Pininfarina has brought us the vehicle and can see all the technology.

http://www.new-stratos.com/de/#/article/a7

http://www.ausmotive.com/2010/11/14/pininfarina-hands-over-new-stratos.html

excuse my English, I hope you understand me.

Antonio

 

Hello StefVan,

the catalysts start to operate at 250 ° C but only 50% of efficiency. optimal for 200 Celler HJS Catalysts 700 ° C because no check engine light goes on, important is that you have many coated surface.
for this reason we take large catalyst, we do not get this temperature without this heat shield. we have to take so that the catalysts have the right temperature and the engine room is cooler.

Look at the picture posted on the catalysts at the beginning ... as you fall to nothing, I'm surprised that you did not notice, you're a technician.

the final oxygen sensor sends monitors the efficiency of the catalyst but also other information on the ECU, watch where it is installed, they can measure anything, it is not in the exhaust flow.

SteFVan what you think what could have consequences for?
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Pardon my ignorance since this is my first F-car. If sports cats have so many issues with heat, then why aren't people using test pipes instead? Is it because they are too loud? They set off the CEL? They fail the SMOG test? These are valid reasons but what sort of improvements do you get with a sports cat other than slightly improved flow? Does performance get bumped up?

 

Stef,

Thanks for posting the dyno graph. Appreciate it.


Antonio,

Congratulations on having Capristo in the new Stratos.



Lou

 

But my car do get CEL, code 0140 lamda sensor no activity, even with the exteneders remove still getting CEL

Thanks for the explanations indeed.

 

It's quite clear that with such a Lamba extender + very narrow 200 Cell cats = playing with huge backpressure and totaly unbalanced fuel/air mixtures. There is good chance that at minimum there will be CEL which would be the best situation! The worst would be not to have a CEL but your engine will run maybe permanently rich or, for sure, lean, just at the limit of the threshold mapped in the DME. You'll end by ruining your engine, maybe not after 1.000 miles but at the end, you will. I can't believe that F owners are ready to sacrifice their expensive car just for more scream and less power because with such a narrow cats, you can't get more power. Antonio is right, the sensors are not just simple lamba sensors. The front lambda Bosch LSU4 (wideband planar oxygen sensor with expected service lifetime of 160.000 km max) is sending more information than just a simple Lambda voltage (xxxmV) : 6 wires (pump, Nernst and reference cells + heater). While the rear lambda (downstream) is a LSF4 type (narrow band 4 wires). The DME, from the received signals from the rear oxygen sensor will check also if the front sensor is operating well and is not aging as well as the catalytic converter aging factor. If the DME find out an aging factor, it will ajust the air/fuel mixture accordingly. Changing your stock cat for a narrow sport cat + rear lamba extenders without thoroughly checking what’s going on in the DME = Russian roulette… It's impossible to know how exactly the DME code is making his calculations which is made by Ferrari...but we know that it does make many calculations and assumptions from the received lamba sensor info. My point afterall is that avoiding only the CEL is nonsense

 

I'm not very technical. So does that mean a larger cell cat will be much safer, or even a test pipe? How does changing the cat cause the engine to run rich or lean without tinkering with the ecu?

 

It is important the have the right ratio of cpi and cat diameter. Less cells per inch should have larger holes but if the diameter is too small, you'll get the opposite effect: backpressure in stead of hyper flow. I would take only large cats even if they are only 200 cpi. But such cats must be insulated otherwise they will be too cold when cruising and you'll end up with a CEL. I would never consider test pipes + lamba sensor extenders to fake the DME as lamba sensors as I explained before do much more than just giving a lambda value. Giving wrong info to the DME=DME will order wrong injection time giving a leaner or richer air/fuel mixture too far from the ideal 14.7:1 ratio.

 

Catalyst efficiency is a combination of the temperature, the coating (active catalysts), and the volumetric setup.

Not just the cells-per-inch, but the length of the coated matrix as well.

It's not something the after market usually gets "right" and it's why the EPA has laws that say that you cannot "just replace" a catalyst unless it's faulty, and that the replacement has to be certified for use on that specific car.

Jim

 

The advice I received from two OEM calibrators (I am pretty sure Jim knows one of them) is that the second set of sensors (where people install extenders) do not affect fuel. I'm curious what systems you are aware of that use the second sensor to "test" the first.

I don't really see how it's possible - all the DME knows is the difference between the switching ratios of the two sensors, right? Under what conditions would it decide that the first sensor should be ignored yet still run closed loop with the second sensor? The buffering effect of the cat would seem to make that impossible.

 

The purpose of the rear oxygen sensor is not only to monitor the oxygen content of the exhaust gases leaving the catalytic converter for emissions control. It is also used to ensure that it maintains the cat's light-off temperature at all times which is 500 degrees Celcius. If the O2 sensor voltage drops too low (indicating cold temperatures), the DME will inject more fuel to raise the temperature. If the DME's efforts to regain proper light-off temperature are in vain, it will trigger a check engine light to notify you of converter malfunction.

Also, if you have a look in the WSM of the F430, it's clearly stated that :

Rear BOSCH LSF 4 Oxygen Sensor
This sensor has a double function:

• it reveals ageing of the catalytic converter by comparing it with the signal from the front oxygen sensor;

• in the event of ageing of the front oxygen sensor, it adjusts the mixture accordingly.

Hope this helps

 

Oxygen sensors schematics of the F612 on the ME 7.1.1 which is 100% identical for the F430 (just convert the cylindre values)
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