The Australian Concours judging system .. what options?

Prior to the National Rally in 2007 I sent the following out to the National Committee to try and get the system changed for the Concours judging. My suggestions were based on what I had experienced since I started serious Concours competition in 1988, and what I saw evolve in the USA since 1994. I received a total knock back by the National Committee.

I sent to National secretary in July 2008 as a suggestion for the Sydney 2008 Rally .. NO response.

I had one last go in November 2008 and sent to ALL the National Committee and those interested in Concours judging. Again not one person replied and I gave up after then.

The 2010 judging seems to have caused as much ructions as it has since 1988, and I think Concours could definitely be made more interesting to Ferrari owners.

The reason I believe CONCOURS is VERY important is to preserve the Ferrari in its original condition, or to have the knowledge to KNOW what ist original condition is or was so you can take your car there. As far as I am concerned this beats ripping around a race track hands down .

IMHO Concours preparation is about having the car in tip-top mechanical and physical condition .. with NO modifications except as supplied ex the factory.

The USA system I have judged several times. It is very straight forward, uncomplicated and I believe there are probably at least ten people in Australia who would make very good judges. You DO NEED a good knowledge of your class .. not a perfect knowledge.

You lose points for incorrect:
Exhaust,
wheels and incorrect tyre sizes
Incorrect finish (shiny versus satin air boxes on a 275, crinkle versus gloss, Correct plating (have a look at the exhaust hanger for a 308QV), fasteners and so on.
Condition and paint on panels. Within reason, road chips may lose max .5 point in a USA system . Correct colour for period.
Suspension .. original size springs, roll bars and shockers.
Badges .. No extra F badges to trumpet fact car is a Ferrari .. aka 246’s which, of course, are not
And so on.
Polish is the icing on the cake, but is NOT the be all and end all.

Submission to National Committee of FCA for Concours judging change

1. Everyone is familiar with the current Australian system and the 5 pages of judging sheets and 1 of owner filling out. Each page requires 2 judges plus someone to ACCURATELY put the scores in a computer. About a Team of 12 I would say.

2. The way the judges are chosen are either external, (Porsche club/car body repair shops) or internal, via a system of “last person standing when the music stops” is a judge at the rally. There has to be a better way?

Options for judging at Thredbo 2007

1. The present judging system is used
a. We would need to organize 10 judges.

b. With 36 cars to be judged the judging will take till 3 or 4pm.

c. I, together with 9 other judges, judged at Darling Harbour last year a similar number of cars. I would be reluctant to judge for that long again.

d. Therein lies the problem as to why the Australian system is unpopular with both judges and contestants.

e. At an event like Darling Harbour the cars are "captured" all day. At Thredbo or a Ferrari only Concours the entrants do NOT want to hang aroun till 3 or 4 pm. A similar thing happened at the Victorian Concours a few years ago.

f. The Australian system is OK for up to 15 Cars (remember Midway rally at Cowra in 2004)

g. The Australian system is based loosely on the Jaguar system. In the late ‘90s a Concours committee modified the system to:
Award ‘bonus points” to older cars, whilst penalising new cars
Award points to those who drove up to 1000kms to rally
Penalise those who truck their car to rally.
These were put into the last Australian judging sheet to try and encourage the older cars to come to Concours because of the perception that older cars would lose to a car "put in a bubble at the factory gates and put out at the Concours venue".

2. The USA system is used
a. The overall mantra is that Ferraris are meant to be driven

b. The overall Concours philosophy is that the cars are judged on Condition and Originality.

c. The awards system rewards ALL those cars who get to a set standard.
Ie. All cars .95 points score platinum. Cars 90 – 94.9 get a gold. Car from 85 to 89.9 gets a silver.
Consequently there can be more than one class winning cars. Ie. Three cars may get platinums in 308 class .. they are ALL judged as equal at this level, even though one may score 96 and other 99 points.
There are NO points awarded for age/distance travelled or lost for cars trailered to the venue. Using the Platinum/Gold/Silver system you are BATTLING AGAINST yourself rather than other cars.

Major Awards and the Australian System
1st past the post wins. Why a crappy 246 that happens to be the sole 246 that rolled up to a National Concours can be as prestigious at the class level as an eventual overall winner ins in their class beats me.

Major awards in the USA system
Only Platinum award winners are eligible.
The winners are decided by the chief judges of each class and the head judge (ranging from 3 people at a smallish Concours to 20 at the Ferrari Club America National Concours)
They look at the scores and have a round table discussion and the decisions are made. There IS an element of subjectiveness at this point.

Next post I will discuss the problems with the 2007 FCA National Concours, which was judged using the Australian system. How an F50 and a restored 246 can lose to a 550 Barchetta .. was it fair?.

I welcome comments on Concours judging methods, but don't forget I have been there, done that and I am skeptical and grouchy

The photos are to show different finishes etc. Not sure how well they will come out?

Is #754 TR worth winning a Concours in that condition?? ... It IS worth $15mill USD.
The different way to hang exhausts on a front engine V12 for a Concours
The correct silk screen on a Boxer, and 308's etc. Is it??
The engine bay of a 250PF Cab series 1 (0813), Peter Kalikow - this IS correct.
The engine Bay of a 412 at Darling Harbour (2006) .. Is this correct?
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as na outsider looking in.
They need to make it via points handicap very hard for a new car to win outright.
I'd be p1ssed of if a new car beat a car i owned that was older and in time warp as new condition or well prepared.

 

Hi Phil, I've been judging originality, along with TB and Kieth from Euromarque(for the knowledge on the newish cars)for the last few years as well as the FNR last year.

It takes a long time at a Rally.

One thing I do think could be done when there are a lot of cars entered is to dismiss some that are quite obviously not up to a basic standard.

People should enter their cars at the State level BEFORE they enter a National event so they are aware of what gets judged.

People should also always get their score sheets so they can see what has let them down and spend time on that for the next one.

Entering Concorse events regularly or at least every few years is the best way to keep your car looking great.

 

I agree,cars not up to a certain standard,should be dimissed very quickly.
Also a certain standard should be met by the winners ie just because one car enters a class,it should not be deamed as a winner.

 

Should be a minimum of 5 cars of a particular model for a class, otherwise combined.

 

correct,otherwise its a hollow victory.

 

One small gripe on Phil,s list re stonechips;how are people going to get longest(or any)distance awards if they feel they will be pinged for 'war wounds',it will no doubt be detrimental if that is a concour requirement.This is an arguement for trailer queens to come to the fore.

 

as per my post in the nat rally thread,


what always amazes me with concour, you could spend $50,000+ $100,000+ on a resto of an old 308/308gt4,246,anything, new paint (even different colour) new interior, complete rebuild of motor and gearbox etc etc and this car will win against a bone stock all origional car, same paint from factory, same interior from factory etc etc where is the thought on that, sure the fully restored car will look better have better interior but that just means anyone with enough time and a big enough wallet will almost be sure of winning, there needs to be different classes, restored regardless of cost, this would even include cars with fresh paint and then an all origional class, this would be the only fair way of judging the cars apart.
my 2c

 

Half a point Max he said!!!

 

Absolutely agree,a very hollow victory(pick me) in 09,when there were another 3 front engine cars that didn,t enter,given the lack of support for the early cars in entering how would you then compete.

 

many people also over restore cars ie better carpet,trim /leather and paint this also should be noted and points removed or crome where stainless finish was.

 

I think concourse entries should be encouraged months before state and national events and entries should be received weeks before the event.

 

Agree with most of the things you postulate Phil.

I owned and campaigned a National Concours Awards and multi-concours winning Jaguar from 1986 to 2005.

The Jaguar concours judging system is flawed in that they won't penalise cars for age. Thus, a brand new Jaguar can legally and within the rules, be driven off the showroom floor, concoured and win a State or National Concours d'Elegance event = WRONG. There must be a flawless penalty system for this practice which is openly practiced and abused at state and national levels. The Australian Council of Jaguar Clubs (ACJC) are too frightened to tighten the rules on new car entries as they are frightened of losing sponsorship from Jaguar Australia and its derivatives and frightened to offend newer car owners.

My interpretation of 'concouring' is simple - it's the act of presenting your car for judging in a manner that your vehicle presents as close as practicable to how it was manufactured at the factory and specifically accounting for originality and authencity.

When a vehicle is judged fairly and equitably (this has it's subjectivety flaws as well when judges don't know their stuff), the owner then takes on board the items marked on the judging sheets which need improvement and thus endeavours to correct mistakes, et al, with the hope that the next time and the next time and the next time he enters a concours, the vehicle is slowly but truly replicating factory original condition and getting better every time. How can you attribute the aforementioned to newer cars being concoured.

There are of course some anomalies which need special dispensation such as non-availability of items like batteries and tyres which, during the life of an older vehicle, may have in time become redundant, eg. Lucas batteries and Avon tyres are no longer available for Jaguar.

Sorry to harp on the Jaguar theme, but it rolls over exactly the same for Ferrari concours.

Give me a new or newer Ferrari/Jag/ Merc/Porsche et al and I will detail that vehicle to win a National Concours event outright at all times. For example, try comparing an older model (circa 70's-80's) V12 Jag engine such as with an XJ or XJ-S, to a newer model when all you can see is a holistic plastic cover over the engine - it's a no brainer. Also, older cars were constructed and painted in much more inferior conditions than today's state-of-the-art factories where paint technology is second-to-none and body parts are aligned with lasers etc.

Also, I believe we should be adopting the US method of judging each vehicles in a given pre-determined maximun time period. The longer you look at a car for judging, the more faults you will find with it, period.

By the way - what is the outright awards ruling for entering late model Ferraris versus early model Ferraris ?

 

very well said.

How did you get such a big avatar?

 

Alright .. first thing .. I am saying there is a better system .. the USA system. I am NOT trying to perfect the Australian system which I think is clearly inadequate. As I said the condition and cleanliness judges selection is, and has been, a 'last person left standing' situation, Originality then becomes a secret black art.

In the USA system the 2 or 3 judges in a class ALL discuss originality cleanliness and condition as the judging continues .. there may be an acknowledged expert in the group, but everyone gets a go, and by that method the expertise level rises.

Prejudging ...
a. Everyone is entitled to enter a Concours as everyone is entitled to go to a track day.
b. The score sheets are available to AUS and USA participants
c. BJ post 4 ... If one car enters a class under the USA system it is eligible for a Platinum/Gold/Silver or no award .. that is all. If one car enters in the AUS sytem, then it is a class winner .. although nowadays classes are combined
d. Simon post 8 .. As I said above 'Condition and paint on panels. Within reason, road chips may lose max .5 point in a USA system" similarly in the AUS sytem .. not overly penalised.
e. BJ post 14 .. refer to correct finish .. this includes carpet. How do you define "over-restoration". It is moving away, and penalised, for not being original. Ergo an 'over-restored' car will LOSE points for incorrect finish/type.
f. Vegas .. fair points and I intend to get an XK150 roadster before I pop off planet earth. Your para "my interpretation .." IS correct. Over a few years things get replaced, improved and redone,, but the point is to be ORIGINAL. You say you could win a National Concours with a newer car. Using the AUS sytem (points out of 500 + bonus) that would be so. Using the USA system you would ONLY win a Platinum ... outright win .. see below.
In the USA system judging, which includes starting the car and checking the instruments, takes 10 minutes per car. This is VERY exciting when judging formula cars.
Consider:
1. In the USA sytem the awards are given, within classes (say 308) as a Platinum, Gold and Silver .. NOT a first, second third system.

2. In the Australian system in Adelaide, the new (local) 599 would start off with minus 30 points.
Kate Robey's 246 AND Brett's 308 would start off (if they drove) with age points of say 30 and 20 respectively and travel of 12 and 8
Before judging starts 599 = -30, 246 = + 42, 308 = +28.
However if 246 and 308 trailered, then 246 = +10, and 308 = 0

The USA system does not start off with these penalties at all, except cars less than 5 years are ineligible. Does it matter if there is a 360 class, where they all get platinum??

I will move onto method of determining major prizes under USA system once the comments to this have dried up.

However I suggest think about how an overall could be selected/seperated in a subjective sytem, when say an F40, a 550 Barchetta and say a Daytona and 7 x 360's all win a platinum award, and ALL are 99 point cars (USA system)

The concours.docs I think are current for Aus.
The photo shows two Ferrari icons .. Ed and Sherry Gilbertson. behind them are the way the winners of different major awards are determined.
The 456 has an excess of road rash
View attachment AFR - Concours 2000 - Sec 1.doc
View attachment AFR - Concours 2000 - Sec 2.doc
View attachment AFR - Concours 2000 - Sec 3.doc
View attachment AFR - Concours 2000 - Sec 4.doc
View attachment AFR - Concours 2000 - Sec 5.doc
View attachment AFR - Concours 2000 - Sec 6.doc
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456 looks great.

 

Goober ... Rossa subscribed see Paps
BJ ... HaHa .. you are a dag
Philip C

 

I mean it ,I prefer a car with stone chips to a hanger queen.

 

lol.

Why don't you contemplate concouring the 355. You may surprise yourself !!!

 

I have no interest. I recently gave it a full bare metal respray and engine rebuild...it was 12 months before I could drive it again because it looked so magnificent and I didn't want to spoil it. Thank god for Tamworth....weather conditions were atrocious on the way back to Sydney, and now I can happily drive it again whenever I want...rain, hail or shine. I don't use it a lot, but when I do, I don't want to think "my god....the cleanup job is going to be HUGE". Everyone I know with a truly pristine car is the same. You just can't have it both ways.

 

to good of a car to concour

 

Phil, as much as I don't like concour I can see the purpose it serves in maintaining the breed .... that said isn't it possible for the few knowedgable judges in Australia to be commissioned to do the concour each year in a FIFO manner ?

Also, the standard should be set by the states as previously menioned so as not to waste the judges time (I would never consider presenting mine as it would never be good enough to have a judge try and measure it) ... ie, at the state level you need a certain score before you can be considered for presenting to the national level unless you have a case to present where you have fixed ALL the faults found at state level

 

My solution to the concour problem is all entrants required to sign the following as part of the entrance requirements:

" I .......... hereby acknowledge I am on a hiding to hell with this entry. I understand I may be penalised for over-use, over-restoration, over-fussing or alternatively for being a garage queen or innattentave owner. I confirm others may cheat, lie, use priviliged information and services and reserve my right to do likewise. I hereby indemnify all judges and officials from ever having to listen to my complaints hereafter."

 

Phil has made an effort with this thread. So in order to keep it on track and readable, I'm pruning all OT posts.
Please co-operate guys.

 

For a start the judges need to know what model a car is.
I'm told they had to ask waht a certain carby car was?