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Dual-Clutch Gearbox Alternative

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ingegnere, Nov 19, 2010.

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  1. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    #1 ingegnere, Nov 19, 2010
    There have been more than a few comments about the size and weight of the dual-clutch unit on the 458, so find it interesting that Lambo have shunned the dual-clutch transmission on the Murci replacement and have gone with what they call the ISR (independent Shift Rod) concept.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q4/lamborghini_murcielago_replacement_v12_powertrain_details-auto_shows

    From the description, sounds like what they are using in F1 "seamless" gearboxes these days, so Lambo's claims about it being smaller and lighter a very believable. Size and weight in F1 are critical, which explains why they don't use dual-clutch.

    Shift times must still be very good, despite there being some interruption of power transmission while single clutch disengages/re-engages. If it's good enough for F1...

    Anyway, gearbox is made by Italian supplier Graziano, so maybe we'll see it as a weight saving development some day.
     
  2. vancity

    vancity Karting

    Mar 19, 2010
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    #2 vancity, Nov 19, 2010
    I read somewhere that the new Lamborghini ISR transmissions weighs only 79 kilograms and the new ferrari 458 transmission weighs about 25 kilograms (55 pounds).
     
  3. leead1

    leead1 F1 Rookie

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    #3 leead1, Nov 19, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2010
    I own both a 2010 560-4 Lambo Galardo and a 2010 458. As a normal driver not a race car person the differences are noooticeable.

    The 458 is a 7 speed amd the Lambo is 6 speed

    Lambo is electric and the 458 is an oil clutch. This means at a stop you must put the Lambo in nutral to protect the clutch, It is not needed in the 458.

    The lambo in sport mode as you slow down pops the throttle to save life on the clutch . It also make the 6 speed to 1st gear very smooth and it sounds very cool. The 458 does not do this. the 458 in race mode is jerky and it shifts down. In normal mode it is less so and not very noticeable.

    The dpk on the 458 makes shifting as you speed up very quick and very smooth. The lambo is slower to shift and no where near as smooth.

    If you ask which is technically better or more fun to drive it is a tough question. I like them both. In sport mode I love the Lambo sound and extra power, But it is crude compared to the 458 which is quicker , smother and has more gears.

    My opinion is the ferrari 458 has a more thechnical and better gear box. My issue is I enjoy the Lambo in sport mode when I am in a more playful mood. In normal mode it is very smooth like the 458 but no fun. The 458 is fun in all modes at some degree.

    Someone will yell at me but I have not tried the corsca mode on the Lambo transmission. Why do you ask? because the dealer vtold me not to because it is bad for the clutch.

    Both 2010 cars F1 or E1's are better transmissions than the cars before.

    Lee
     
  4. mrbucket2

    mrbucket2 Formula 3

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    #4 mrbucket2, Nov 19, 2010
    This ISR gearbox is completely different from your Gallardo's E Gear.
     
  5. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    #5 ingegnere, Nov 19, 2010
    From the Getrag (458 gearbox supplier) catalog, their dual clutch gearbox for a mid-engine application weighs 120 kg (264 lbs):

    http://www.getrag.de/en/253
     
  6. ignaciotero

    ignaciotero Karting

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    #6 ignaciotero, Nov 19, 2010
    F1 doesn't use dual-cluth because its forbidden, not beacuase of the weight.
     
  7. ferrari270

    ferrari270 Karting

    Mar 25, 2010
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    #7 ferrari270, Nov 20, 2010
    pdk on 458????? pdk is on porsches only

     
  8. shin

    shin Karting

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    #8 shin, Nov 20, 2010
    Do you even know what a dual clutch is ? PDK is only a name by Porsche. The 458 has dual clutch trans.
     
  9. vancity

    vancity Karting

    Mar 19, 2010
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    #9 vancity, Nov 20, 2010
    I thought ferrari make and design there own clutch?
     
  10. vancity

    vancity Karting

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    #10 vancity, Nov 20, 2010
  11. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    #11 ingegnere, Nov 20, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
    I know it's outlawed now (because of possibilities to "blend" a couple of gear ratios), but even before that, there was only (rumored) limited use of dual-clutch, because of overall size, weight and complexity.
     
  12. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    #12 ingegnere, Nov 20, 2010
  13. vancity

    vancity Karting

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    #13 vancity, Nov 20, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
    Oh yeah, I see now. Misunderstanding I was just scanning though the article. You are right.
     
  14. ferrari270

    ferrari270 Karting

    Mar 25, 2010
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    #14 ferrari270, Nov 21, 2010
    dual clutch yes recent cars but not pdk PDK ( the name is only given for Porsche)

    its like saying tiptronic (slushbox) for every single car No , its only for porsches , Steptronic is for BMW , S tronic is for audi >>>

    i hope you got the idea
     
  15. ferrari270

    ferrari270 Karting

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    #15 ferrari270, Nov 21, 2010
    you cannot say F 458 ITALIA has PDK - as a matter of fact, you can say that it has an Ferrari F1 Seven speed transmission - Dual Clutch system type
     
  16. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    #16 ingegnere, Nov 21, 2010
    Especially since the P stands for Porsche, as in "Porsche Doppelkupplungsgetriebe".

    It's interesting that Porsche developed this for racing almost 30 years ago on their Group C 956 (or 962 ?) yet I don't think there are any top-level race-cars using a dual-clutch set up today.
     
  17. Doctor7474

    Doctor7474 Formula Junior

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    #17 Doctor7474, Nov 21, 2010
    Or we can just call it the Getrag 7 speed dual clutch transmission since the same internals of the transmission are being shared between several different auto manufacturers.

    Most mfg's today do not make there own transmissions.

    Porsche is using the ZF version.

    VW group including Bugatti excluding the R8 and Lambo's are using a Borg-Warner design.

    Mercedes and BMW are using the same Getrag versions as Ferrari.

    ect...
     
  18. markcoznottz

    markcoznottz Rookie

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    #18 markcoznottz, Nov 21, 2010
    Veyron gearbox was designed and manufactured by Ricardo.
     
  19. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    #19 ingegnere, Nov 21, 2010

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